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.357 mag and 10mm gelatin tests


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Old 07-29-2013, 04:40 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Anna_Purna View Post
And the bone????
Sorry it took a while to get back over here, guys.

Bone introduces a lot of other problems. Professional labs will sometimes include bone in a battery of tests but it takes a very large sample size to get any useful information. It's nearly impossible to predict with any accuracy what will happen when a bullet strikes bone. It is definitely outside the scope of my testing.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:46 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
Good point. The fact of the matter is that ballistic gel is great for advertising purposes to compare one round to another, but it is next to worthless for predicting how a round will act on a human.

I have seen cold ones with multiple GSWs from the same box of ammo fired through the same gun that varied in penetration by at least a female's 6 inches.

I have seen rounds blow right through the chest and other rounds in the same person from the same box through the same gun not even penetrate the skin of a beer gut.

I've seen rounds follow a rib all the way around and exit through the skin at the back.

All of these things are impossible to predict with gel. If the author had said "soft tissue" I might come closer to believing it, but as it's written, it's bunk.

I didn't write that. Those quotes are from Docters Fackler and Roberts. I'm not qualified to draw any conclusions. From your claim about ammo blowing through a chest and not penetrating the skin, it's fairly clear you're lying or delusional. It is true that projectiles can do odd things and intermediate barriers or bone can significantly complicate things but you just stated several mythical cliches of the hillbilly gun counter in one post.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:48 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
That must be an old test. I checked underwoods site to find that round. They don't even list it any longer. This is a real world test. I shot a deer in the chest with a 125 gr Fiocchi SP round. The bullet exited wight in front of the deer's hip. The Fiocchi SP penetrated around 34" of deer. The deer was about 15 yards from me when I took the shot. When I field dressed the deer it's lungs were trashed. The deer's diaphragm was split where the bullet passed through it. I used a Ruger Blackhawk with a 6.5" barrel to take the deer.
It is a Rainier bullet. Not an old test but a discontinued loading from Underwood. I figure it's still useful, though, because the bullets are available and the velocity is consistent with what a hand loader might load to.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:50 PM   #14
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Is the term " HEX Plated" bullet reference to the a Rainer hex bullet? Not the normal speer or hornady jacked and bonded bullets underwood use's. Never looked at the rainer bullets as quality defence bullet. More for match use.
That's probably a good way to look at it. Because they're a JHP and are scored, some people might believe them to be suitable for hunting or defense. They clearly aren't, at least at that velocity. Might be a different story out of a 16" barrel.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:57 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
I didn't write that. Those quotes are from Docters Fackler and Roberts. I'm not qualified to draw any conclusions. From your claim about ammo blowing through a chest and not penetrating the skin, it's fairly clear you're lying or delusional. It is true that projectiles can do odd things and intermediate barriers or bone can significantly complicate things but you just stated several mythical cliches of the hillbilly gun counter in one post.
Actually, I am neither lying or delusional, just very experienced in treating GSW patients. I have seen things that to this day I don't believe, but they happen.

The patient in question was a 225 pound COPD and CHF patient suffering from acute alcoholism. The first round went right through the chest without hitting bone. The second round missed him completely, and the third did not penetrate his abdomen. He was shot with a 9mm S&W mod 39. From his condition are you getting a clue as to why it happened?
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Old 07-29-2013, 05:15 PM   #16
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Am I the only one who thinks that dude looks disturbingly like Ted Turner?

Pls resume your normally scheduled thread.
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Old 07-29-2013, 05:39 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
It's a nice test. But it really doesn't prove that much. Who uses FMJ ammo for SD in anything larger than a 9mm? I don't even buy 357 mag FMJ ammo for target practice. 357 mag SP ammo is usually pretty close to the same price as FMJ.
I respectfully,
disagree Sir,

The way In figure it the performance of .357 magnum is so good, the lack of a hollow point in a FMJ is not a significant operational detriment.

But it DOES usefully expand the envelope shooting into vehicles and folks behind light cover such as vests.

For example S&B makes many different .357 Mag loads, including 2 or 3 158 gr.

one of them is 158 GR FMJ at 1400 fps thats as fast in a 158gr as the typical quality 125 gr (!), so its a real hot load with over 600lbs ft of energy .

Thats twice that of a 9 mil and almost as much as some 44 Mag.

BUT unlike the typical 44 Mags its bi-metal FMJ so you can imagine the penetration thru some light cover (steel doors, vests etc) to be even a greater than some 44 Mag loads as those are presumed by the tester to be either HP or SP.

All the while its speed and size assures good on target effect as well.
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Old 07-30-2013, 02:44 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
Actually, I am neither lying or delusional, just very experienced in treating GSW patients. I have seen things that to this day I don't believe, but they happen.

The patient in question was a 225 pound COPD and CHF patient suffering from acute alcoholism. The first round went right through the chest without hitting bone. The second round missed him completely, and the third did not penetrate his abdomen. He was shot with a 9mm S&W mod 39. From his condition are you getting a clue as to why it happened?
That's a dramatically different story. Not completely penetrating is a world away from "...not even penetrate the skin of a beer gut."
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:16 PM   #19
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That's a dramatically different story. Not completely penetrating is a world away from "...not even penetrate the skin of a beer gut."
Let's see. We have:

Quote:
and the third did not penetrate his abdomen
and

Quote:
...not even penetrate the skin of a beer gut."
Looks like the same thing to me, but that may be the medical training coming through. Abdomen is an anatomical area of the body. Abdominal cavity is the part with the organs in it. It's just like the thorax. That would be the area between the neck and the abdomen. The thoracic cavity contains the organs.

Let me put it this way and hopefully eliminate all questions. He was hit about 2 inches above and to his right of his navel. There was a large red spot, but not a single drop of blood at the injury site.

By the way, if you're going to quote me, please try to be accurate. The word "completely" was not in the sentence you attribute to me.
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Old 07-31-2013, 02:32 PM   #20
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I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, thinking that you might have been imprecise or exaggerating. It is now very clear that you are lying, unless there is some other important detail you're leaving out like body armor or other intermediate obstacle.
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