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Old 04-27-2013, 01:35 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggerjob View Post
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Proper_Reloading_Practices-c1246-wp7875.htm

This is interesting link about midway through they address .223 to 5.56 issue for reloaders.
From the linked article.

Quote:
5.56 NATO is NOT .223 Remington. Although nearly identical in outside dimensions they should be treated as different cartridges. You can shoot .223 Rem in a NATO chamber, but it will expand to fit the looser chamber, and will not give premium accuracy. Unfired 5.56 NATO brass will “fit” into a .223 Rem chamber, but NATO ammo is loaded to higher pressures, making it unsafe, or at the least, uncertain in it’s pressures, to properly operate in a tight SAAMI .223 Remington chamber
Let me get this straight.
The 223 and the 5.56 have identical outside dimensions.
The chamber of the 5.56 "is" looser than the 223.
Shooting 223 ammo in a 5.56 will be inaccurate due to the loose chamber.
5.56 ammo will physically fit into a 223 chamber (same size).

If this logic holds true then firing 5.56 ammo in a 5.56 chamber will be "Inaccurate" as the outside dimensions of the ammo are identical and it will have to expand to fit the loose chamber as well. Hogwash.

Take this logic to the reloading bench.
There is no such thing as a 5.56 sizing die.
Loading for a 5.56 chamber will require a 223 Rem die.
According to this article, handloads for the 5.56 will not be accurate due to cases expanding in the loose chamber. More Hogwash.

As you can see here the difference between the 223 and the 5.56 chambers is in the throat area not in the case body. Compare the PTG 223 to the PTG 5.56. Then tell me that the chamber bodies of the 5.56 are "looser".

http://ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:26 PM   #22
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As the chart shows they are "looser", but the definition of looser is very small differences, the M-4 and M-16 are make to take anyones ammo that is the Mil-Spec for the 5.56 ammo.

But the two rounds are identical except for the shoulders. Once you pull the trigger the brass softens to fill the chamber and seals the cartrage to the throat and barrel. So accuracy is measured in sub-moa units.

You will note that the biggest difference is in the base of the case, and if you have a National Match chamber and barrel, the rounds will not fit in the rifle and will give you a failure to go to battery and get stuck in the chamber. The solution is to "small base" resize the cases and the problems go away. I had the same issues with cases not fitting and getting stuck untill I took the proper steps to resize and make sure the shoulders were set back correctly.

Jim

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Old 04-27-2013, 08:19 PM   #23
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When I first saw the title of the thread, I thought "a new cartridge?". .223 wtf. Like the RUM, WSM, WSSM, etc. Winchester Tactical Frangible?

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Old 04-27-2013, 10:20 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjim View Post
As the chart shows they are "looser", but the definition of looser is very small differences, the M-4 and M-16 are make to take anyones ammo that is the Mil-Spec for the 5.56 ammo.
I don't see "looser" or even a small difference.

------------------PTG 223-------------PTG 5.56
Base Diameter. .3084.--------------- .3083
Shoulder Diameter .3553 --------------- .3553
Neck @shoulder .2550 --------------- .2551
Neck @case mouth .2540-------------- .2540
Base to case mouth 1.7720 ------------ 1.7720
base to shoulder 1.4338 ------------- 1.4337
shoulder angle 23 ------------------ 23


I see no differences even slight differences that would cause accuracy issues as stated in the article above.
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Old 04-28-2013, 03:30 AM   #25
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Quote:
C Base Diameter 0.3779 0.3794 0.3804 0.3810 0.3803 0.3803 0.3803 0.3816
To a reloader even a 0.002 inch is loose, so a 0.005 is very loose. The max OAL for a 223 to work in an AR is 2.260 at 2.261 you have a single shot rifle since the round will not fit in the magazine.

I have measured my chamber and throat with 55 grain bullets on them and it comes to 2.253 anything longer and it will not feed into my chamber and will jam the gun.

You definition and my definition of loose are two different things when you are speaking of a National Match chamber (0.3779).

Jim
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Old 04-28-2013, 08:52 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjim View Post
To a reloader even a 0.002 inch is loose, so a 0.005 is very loose. The max OAL for a 223 to work in an AR is 2.260 at 2.261 you have a single shot rifle since the round will not fit in the magazine.

I have measured my chamber and throat with 55 grain bullets on them and it comes to 2.253 anything longer and it will not feed into my chamber and will jam the gun.

You definition and my definition of loose are two different things when you are speaking of a National Match chamber (0.3779).

Jim
I compared reamers of same manufacturer, PTG, (C) is Larger in the 223 (.3804) compared to the 5.56 (.3803)
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:22 PM   #27
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well, im thinking i may try to sell my die and pick up one of the small base dies. its the only thing i can think of..cause to me when it gets stuck its more towards the rear, headstamp portion of the casing. but that could just be me imagining it.

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Old 04-30-2013, 01:36 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfuller1 View Post
well, im thinking i may try to sell my die and pick up one of the small base dies. its the only thing i can think of..cause to me when it gets stuck its more towards the rear, headstamp portion of the casing. but that could just be me imagining it.
Sorry, but I think you are looking at this problem the wrong way. Look at it as if your dies are the correct ones and your die set up is in need fine tuning.

Don't look for a different set of dies just yet. Lets back up and walk you through your die(s) set up step by step. May take a little time, but I'm pretty sure the guys here can fix you up without resorting to a new set on dies.
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:04 AM   #29
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The only way you are going to know for sure is to take a casting of your chamber and measure. Another way is to take the upper off the lower, remove your bolt and drop test your round into the chamber to see if they will fit. At least this way you will not be jamming the round into the chamber and getting it stuck.

You could do this with a dummy round (no powder or primer) and smoke the case (with a candle or black felt tip marker) and see where the case or bullet is rubbing in the chamber.

Run your tests and let us know the results.
Jim

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