Why is the shotgun the best weapon for home defense? - Page 7
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:11 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dog2000tj

I'm thinking that even with birdshot in a normal sized room or hallway in a typical house an intruder is going to suffer some severe, if not fatal, damage

In my house I have no room larger than 13x13, no hallway longer than 8'. Even standing in opposite corners of a room there would only be max about 7' between the end of a shotgun and the badguy. Seriously, what are the chances I would miss at 7' with a shotgun?
Exactly. Same goes w/ most any firearm at those distances I would think. A 160 pound man at 7 feet is a huge target.

My 1100 is 7+1, Wingmaster something like 4+1, S&W M&P 9 17+1, AR 29+1. Being the "what if" guy that I am the AR w/ some sort of SD round gets the nod.
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Old 04-20-2012, 07:46 PM   #62
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Reloads on a pump are fast and easy anyway.

It's not like you have to jack out and reload a mag.

Just keep feeding the gun as opportunity arises.

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Old 05-10-2012, 04:52 AM   #63
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Do anyone own a Mossberg Maverick 88

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Old 05-10-2012, 09:56 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonM View Post
Totally untrue. Shotguns have to be aimed. Its a interweb myth. Dont believe me setup a target put one round in the shotgun of home defense quality loading at 5 yards close your eyes pick up the shotgun and from the hip shoot. You almost certainly will miss.
This gets debated a lot.

I think it is mostly an issue of semantics though.

I measured the spread on my Mossberg model 590 with its 18 1/2 inch choke-free smoothbore barrel, and determined that the spread in the shot is roughly 1 inch per yard distance.

So at the muzzle the shot is all packed into a nice tight 1 inch ball, roughly, for analogy's sake.

At 10 yards the spread is 10 inches.

At 20 yards the spread is 20 inches.

At 30 yards the spread is 30 inches and ideal. With any other weapon you could easily miss at 30 yards, but with a shotgun it is rather difficult to miss with such a cone of spreading lead going out towards the intended target.

At 40 yards the spread is 40 inches.

At 50 yards the spread is 50 inches, about the size of a door.

Different chokes will give you different results, but for a choke-free smoothbore 18 1/2 inch riot barrel, the spread is quite wide.

So you DO have to aim, it is true, but your results on target are much more likely to hit since the shower blast is getting bigger and bigger all the time. And your aiming is more like "pointing" because you are not shooting a 1/3 inch copper and lead projectile, you are shooting a huge blob of shot that gets bigger and bigger.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:09 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeJK View Post
Maybe I'm not as wealthy as the rest of you and have a huge house w/ rooms that measure the length of football fields from wall to wall. In my home the rooms are of a size point shooting is possible. I'm not saying Rambo that sh.t but precision aiming probably wouldn't be needed. I have tried it out and it seems when I bring a firearm up and point then look through the optic or sights they are always right were I want them.

I'm still not excepting of the theory that shotguns don't penetrate as much as 5.56 w/ so many special purpose rounds out there.
Me too, Mike, I agree with you.

Point-and-shoot with my shotgun or my 45ACP would be more than sufficient in my home.

I have a 15'x30' livingroom, a 20'x20' bedroom, a 10'x10' kitchen, a 10'x10' bathroom, and a 15'x5' hallway, apartment. And when standing near the front door speaking through the window next to it, I would be only about 3 to 5 ft away from a perp.

Ergo, no aiming required. All point-and-shoot range less than 5 ft away.

My primary defense gun is my 45ACP however. I can draw and shoot that from my hip holster fasther than I can rack my pump for my shotgun.

I have only actually loaded the shotgun one, in a HD situation, when late after midnight a van pulled up into our parking lot and half a dozen hoodies got out and started working over the cars in the lot. That's the only time I felt a loaded shotgun was even warranted. I called 911 right away, after observing that they were flashlighting the cars, and the LEOs were on the scene within a few minutes.

The 45ACP has been sufficient for all other perp encounters, of which there have been about half a dozen in my neighborhood.

With a 45ACP and a holster, you need to practice your draw and trigger pull every day for 15 times each, at least, until you get really good at it. And then you need to regularly practice again thereafter. Snap caps are really good for doing this in front of a mirror, as with any martial art, so you can see exactly what you are doing, right or wrong.
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Old 05-10-2012, 12:14 PM   #66
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They had a national pole on "Top Guns"on the History channel that said most people prefer a handgun over a shotgun for home defense,I don't know how true that is but I have switched to keeping my .44 magnum revolver as primary with 180 grain XTP hollowpoints over my shotgun and I feel very confident with that setup,I have my 12 gauge 870 close by with some 2.75" buckshot and a 9mm pistol with XTP hollowpoints.

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Old 05-10-2012, 07:51 PM   #67
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I like having a shotgun around because if i hear a pump in the night i can grab in ang go and not have ti fumble around for my specks. I like heavy shot #4/#2.

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Old 05-10-2012, 07:55 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatoth View Post
They had a national pole on "Top Guns"on the History channel that said most people prefer a handgun over a shotgun for home defense,I don't know how true that is but I have switched to keeping my .44 magnum revolver as primary with 180 grain XTP hollowpoints over my shotgun and I feel very confident with that setup,I have my 12 gauge 870 close by with some 2.75" buckshot and a 9mm pistol with XTP hollowpoints.
Me too, I have switched to my 45ACP over my Mossberg 12 gauge or my S&W 44 mag for home defense. I only keep the 45ACP loaded and chambered with the hammer down, together with 4 fully loaded mags on the pistol belt as well. The other guns I keep unloaded and stowed in the gunsafe.
4-mag-pouches2.jpg  
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Old 03-18-2013, 03:59 AM   #69
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I guess it would be helpful to understand the wounding mechanism of projectiles like bullets and buckshot. I take my advice about wounding mechanisms and lethality from trauma surgeons who treat people who have been wounded or killed from small arms, not what someone saw or read on the internet.

Pistols:
9MM/.45ACP/.357 Magnum - All pretty much the same. All are underpowered with respect to a rifle or shotgun slug and lack the power, in many cases, to even penetrate through both sides of an adult male.

Carbines:
5.56MMx45MM - The 55 grain FMJ (US Military M193) ammunition was designed to tumble upon impact and tends to fragment into two or three large pieces due to the thin jacket of the projectile and the cannelure that is weaker than the rest of the body of the projectile. At speeds above roughly 2700 FPS, the aforementioned military 556 cartridge tumbles end over end because the projectile is base heavy and the hypervelocity and tumbling overcome the structural integrity of the bullet which causes fragmentation. At speeds below 2700 FPS, the lethality of the bullet is greatly reduced because the wounding mechanisms (tumbling and fragmentation) are greatly reduced. If the person you are shooting at is skinny enough for the projectile to exit the body before tumbling, the effect is nothing like what it would be if the projectile tumbled and fragmented in their body. The actual kinetic energy of the 556 55 grain military ammunition is on par with a hot loaded .44 Magnum.

7.62x39MM - The M43 projectiles were more nose heavy than base heavy, so the effect of shooting someone was a lot like the effect of shooting a skinny person with 556. The M67 projectiles are more base heavy, so the effect is more akin to shooting a normal person with 556 wherein the projectile tumbles and fragments in their body, except without the fragmentation. That said, the 123/124 grain projectiles are more than twice as heavy as 556 and have greater kinetic energy. There's a 50%-80% increase in the kinetic energy of the projectile over 556. The larger, slower bullet also loses kinetic energy faster than 556.

12 Gauge Shotguns:
12 pellet 00 Buckshot - Buckshot, like all round projectiles, lose speed and kinetic energy fairly quickly, but at point blank range the combined energy is significant. A 12 pellet magnum load has about as much kinetic energy at the muzzle as one of the hotter 7.62MMx39MM loadings, but it's important to remember that this energy is the combined kinetic energy of ALL the pellets. Each pellet has 1/12 that amount of kinetic energy. Put another way, each pellet has about the same kinetic energy as a light .38 Special loading.

1 OZ Slug - The average 12 gauge slug is, roughly, more than twice as powerful as the M193 cartridge, but loses velocity and kinetic energy quickly. At point blank range, this is a very powerful cartridge (almost as powerful as a .30-06 cartridge) and there are some loadings with significantly more kinetic energy.

Modern military carbine cartridges have significantly more kinetic energy than a single 00 OR 000 buckshot pellet and cause more tissue destruction. However, being hit with all 12 pellets will create 12 wound tracts and increase the odds of hitting something vital. All gunshot wounds that don't affect the central nervous system kill through blood loss. Generally speaking, the more wound tracts, the wider the wound tract, or the more near the wound tract is to an artery or vein, the greater the blood loss.

If a deer can be hit with a .30-06 through the heart and sprint several hundred yards before collapsing from blood loss, don't expect a load of buckshot or even a slug to cause instant incapacitation. Understand that there's a difference between lethality and incapacitation. A .22LR cartridge is perfectly lethal to humans, but it might kill over the course of minutes if it does not hit something vital. Similarly a 12 gauge slug that severs the femoral artery is likely fatal within a minute or two, but your attacker may still kill you in the intervening time.

If your attacker is wearing body armor, then nothing short of a rifle bullet or shotgun slug is likely to produce the incapacitating effect most of us seek from our home defense weapons. Most pistol bullets, shotgun pellets, and fragmentation weapons like hand grenades will be stopped by soft body armor. Only rifle plates will stop rifle bullets and shotgun slugs.

A shotgun was a useful weapon in a place like Viet Nam where the engagement distances were frequently 50 yards or less and the density of the vegetation made locating your enemy difficult (fleeting targets or muzzle flashes in the undergrowth) or a surprise occurrence (walking into the enemy). At 25 yards or so, given that you couldn't always tell exactly where your enemy was, spraying a cloud of lead at the enemy with a shotgun was a useful anti-ambush tactic and increased your odds of wounding or killing someone. Past 50 yards, the spread of the buckshot is so extreme that shooting someone with a carbine is generally more effective.

Inside your house (assuming your house isn't a villa), if you are effective at hitting moving targets, tagging someone with all 12 00 buckshot pellets can induce rapid blood loss. Similarly, a double tap to the chest with 556 also produces a lot of tissue destruction.

The primary difference is, for me, if you miss with a semi-auto AR-15 it's pretty easy to get back on target and make a second shot. If you miss with a pump, you have to actuate the pump and get your sights back on target. The AR-15 magazine holds 30 rounds. My pump shotgun holds 7 rounds. I can't afford to miss very often with the pump, especially if two or more people decide they'd like to break into my house. Shooting while moving with a 12 gauge or shooting from awkward positions with a 12 gauge is more difficult than it is with the AR-15. Also, at in-house distances you can use a lightweight AR-15 with one hand.

Contrary to all popular belief, the construction and design of M193 projectiles causes them to lose kinetic energy faster than 12 gauge slugs and 00 buckshot.

I can afford to practice and train more with my AR-15 than my 870 due to the price of ammunition being higher with 12 gauge buckshot and slugs than the surplus 556 from the government arsenal. Obviously the present political circumstance is an anomaly and will resolve itself with time.

Against one or two street criminals with pistols only, no body armor, and little formal weapons training, a shotgun can be just as effective as a carbine or rifle. If the criminals have shotguns or rifles and/or body armor, I'd prefer the AR-15 for stated reasons. I generally try not to take chances if confronted in my own home with little, but important, details like criminals wearing body armor or having weapons training and go straight to the AR-15.

It's your life, your money, and your living circumstances so do what feels right to you. Better yet, instead of asking random guys on the internet that you've never met go seek some formal weapons training from a reputable firearms instructor and then you can decide if you'd rather have a carbine or a shotgun. Most reputable firearms instructors will recommend carbines over shotguns but every school of thought is different. Try several before making a decision.

I can't stress the importance of formal weapons training enough. The question you are asking is something that has been asked an answered by our military, but their operating circumstances are obviously very different than yours.

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Old 03-18-2013, 07:53 AM   #70
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Random Thoughts on Shotguns for Home Defense:

Most shotguns come with stocks that are too long for people who are under 6' or not using the gun for wing shooting.

My Remington 870 Police Magnum came with a stock that might have worked great for Ahhhnuld, but at 5' 10" it was too long for me.

I replaced the traditional SpeedFeed stock on my shotgun with a SpeedFeed IV-S pistol grip buttstock for better control (easier on the wrist) and more leverage on the slide for faster and easier actuation.

The IV-S stock made de-activating the safety more difficult, so that part was replaced with a GG&G safety with a raised design to permit easier actuation.

I broke the flimsy plastic Remington factory magazine follower playing with it, so that part was replaced with a GG&G metal follower.

I purchased a pair of GG&G sling plates to attach a quick-adjust Blue Force Gear two point sling to. Having a 9 pound gun smack you in the knees is not fun. Single points might work for lightweight AR-15's, but shotguns cross the threshold and make 2 point slings a requirement.

I purchased a Remington 2 shot magazine tube extension because the gun only held 5 rounds from the factory. The 7 rounds in the magazine didn't seem like enough, so I added a TacStar side saddle.

I purchased a SureFire picatinny rail slide with the rubber rail covers to replace the SpeedFeed slide because whenever my support hand was sweaty/greasy/dirty my support hand would slip during recoil. I also purchased it to mount a SureFire X300 to, but having my support hand stuck to the slide was my primary concern. I initially tried using the rail with no covers, but after 50-75 rounds of magnum loads or so it starts to cut into your hand and make practice/training uncomfortable, so I added the rail covers.

I purchased a S&J Hardware bayonet mount / barrel clamp to replace the Remington sheet steel barrel clamp. If my shotty runs dry, I wanna be the first kid on my block to bayonet someone with a shotgun. How awesome would it be to see a burglar wheeled out on a gurney with a shotgun stuck up his butt?

All joking aside, setting up a hunting weapon for HD gets a little expensive. With all of my mods, I brought the cost of the weapon a little over 1K, which is about as much as a Colt 6920 goes for in normal times.

The Mossberg 590/590A1 shotguns come with more of what you need for HD out of the box. There was a shortage of 590's at my local funshops when I purchased my 870. If I could have easily scored a 590, I would have taken the 590 over the 870. The Mossberg's ambi safety, lack of a protruding finger pincher... I mean shell lifter, greater factory magazine capacity, and drilled/tapped receiver for an optics rail are features that my Remington lacks. On that note, all shotguns should come with a picatinny rail milled into the receiver. Whatever little bit of extra money that costs by having the factory do it is worth it.

As far as short barreled shotguns and carbines are concerned, people need to draw their pistol in a firing stance and then shoulder their 16"-18" barreled carbine or shotgun in the same stance. There's not much difference in how far the pistol or carbine/shotgun protrudes in a firing position, but going up/down stairs, around corners, and through doors takes more practice with a carbine or shotgun.

The pistol grip only (PGO) shotguns make sense in and around vehicles, but I've never met someone who was more accurate with a PGO shotgun than they were with a normal buttstock. I suppose you could use the SAS method to stabilize a PGO shotgun with a proper sling setup, but it still won't work as well as a normal buttstock.

Anywho, the shotgun can work for HD but a shotgun that's optimal for HD is not optimal for hunting. Also, I'm not sure why people think a $300 dollar hunting shotgun will be totally reliable, have only the best quality materials and workmanship, and come from the manufacturer ready to run as a HD gun. A Colt 6920 needs a PMAG, sling, and white light, but that's about it.

With a shotgun you save a few Benjamins over the purchase of a Colt carbine, but the cost of ammo for a 12 gauge quickly makes the greater purchase price of the AR-15 a non-issue.

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