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Old 06-03-2012, 08:29 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by axxe55 View Post
shoobee, you have completely missed the point again! we are not talking combat situations but HOME DEFENCE! they are completely different scenarios and require different types of loads. if i were in a combat situation, using a shotgun, or in the woods with a possible encounter with a bear, yes i would want and advocate using OO buckshot or even slugs. but in the home at distances of 20 feet or less for an intruder, #4 birdshot will work.
You always post c r a p that is totally useless. Why dont you just ignor my posts, Mr Civilian For Life.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:34 PM   #22
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[QUOTE=axxe55;823877]shoobee, you have completely missed the point again! we are not talking combat situations but HOME DEFENCE! they are completely different scenarios and require different types of loads. QUOTE]

Can you guarantee that it's not like a combat situation? I thought a gun fight was a gunfight. And the environment where SEALs elect to use a shotgun is going to actually be at similar ranges as a home defense scenario. They don't pick shotguns often. If they do, they are working up close.

Any fight that begins in the home may be called defense but once the fight is on, it's time to get offensive and think of it as a counter attack.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:37 PM   #23
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SSGN_Doc, i think your reasoning and arguement has some good merit to it and like how you reach your conclusions. you give strong arguement for the use of buckshot vs. birdshot and agree with what you are saying. it does make sense, but in the confines of a home at distances of less than 20 feet, i feel that from the testing i have done that #4 birdshot will work. my testing was done at 20 feet and the results were pretty close to what MrWray achieved with his testing. the FBI has different standards and criteria than i do for testing and has different scenarios that they will encounter subjects at when using a shotgun. i don't fully discourage using OO buckshot completely, and as stated earlier, i have it in my buttstock carrier for backup if needed.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:46 PM   #24
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[quote=SSGN_Doc;823889]
Quote:
Originally Posted by axxe55 View Post
shoobee, you have completely missed the point again! we are not talking combat situations but HOME DEFENCE! they are completely different scenarios and require different types of loads. QUOTE]

Can you guarantee that it's not like a combat situation? I thought a gun fight was a gunfight. And the environment where SEALs elect to use a shotgun is going to actually be at similar ranges as a home defense scenario. They don't pick shotguns often. If they do, they are working up close.

Any fight that begins in the home may be called defense but once the fight is on, it's time to get offensive and think of it as a counter attack.
military and LE use of shotguns is different than a homeowner engaging an intruder. in military and LE usage, the need for a shotgun could be for engaging multiple targets that are most likely to be armed. i am not saying you are incorrect or wrong, and and fully accept your reasons for why to use buckshot vs. birdshot. you have posted strong and conclusive reasons that have good merit behind them in support of your reasoning. my reasoning is that for my usage, i feel i have a pattern and penetration that is acceptable to me, with the control i want from my shotgun.
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Old 06-03-2012, 09:47 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axxe55 View Post
SSGN_Doc, i think your reasoning and arguement has some good merit to it and like how you reach your conclusions. you give strong arguement for the use of buckshot vs. birdshot and agree with what you are saying. it does make sense, but in the confines of a home at distances of less than 20 feet, i feel that from the testing i have done that #4 birdshot will work. my testing was done at 20 feet and the results were pretty close to what MrWray achieved with his testing. the FBI has different standards and criteria than i do for testing and has different scenarios that they will encounter subjects at when using a shotgun. i don't fully discourage using OO buckshot completely, and as stated earlier, i have it in my buttstock carrier for backup if needed.
One of the best qualities of a shotgun is the versatility it offers in the different ammo that you can stoke it with. It allows the user to tailor it to the needs of the job at hand. If you carry a separate load I highly recommend practicing tansitioning to that load if it should ever be needed.

Down here in hurricane country I figure I may need to be prepared to use it in a worst case scenario. Could stil be multiple attackers, and bad guys can use cover too.
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Old 06-03-2012, 09:53 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by SSGN_Doc View Post
One of the best qualities of a shotgun is the versatility it offers in the different ammo that you can stoke it with. It allows the user to tailor it to the needs of the job at hand. If you carry a separate load I highly recommend practicing tansitioning to that load if it should ever be needed.

Down here in hurricane country I figure I may need to be prepared to use it in a worst case scenario. Could stil be multiple attackers, and bad guys can use cover too.
i agree with you. i am not one of those who buys a firearm and some ammo and then hope they will do the job needed when needed! i am pretty much a hands on type person and do quite a lot of shooting here at the house. i live in a rural area and have my own land so i am able to do quite a lot of shooting and practice.
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Old 06-03-2012, 09:55 PM   #27
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You always post c r a p that is totally useless. Why dont you just ignor my posts, Mr Civilian For Life.
shoobee, if my arguements and statements are useless, then prove them useless with facts and evidence. if you are not able to, then the rest of us will understand your reasons!
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axxe55 View Post
shoobee, you have completely missed the point again! we are not talking combat situations but HOME DEFENCE! they are completely different scenarios and require different types of loads. if i were in a combat situation, using a shotgun, or in the woods with a possible encounter with a bear, yes i would want and advocate using OO buckshot or even slugs. but in the home at distances of 20 feet or less for an intruder, #4 birdshot will work.
No Axxe, as much as you might want it to, hope it would, and might even get lucky about, it very well may not. These pictures were taken from a shot fired at three (3) feet from the block.


Pics:

A - #4 Remington Heavy Dove out of an 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnum

B - Significant crushing of tissue evident as with all birdshot, however miniimal penetration limits the effectiveness of small shot as a tactical round except at ultra short range.

C - Perspective of the shredded gelatin block.

D - Slightly more perspective.

E - Closeup of the entrance "hole".

Small sized birdshot such as this #4 heavy dove load is a poor choice for deployment with a tactical shotgun. Wounds inflicted from birdshot tend to be gruesome yet shallow as they lack the penetration required to reach vital cardiovascular or central nervous system structures.


#4 Shot is better than no shot, Axxe, and do what YOU want, but please don't get anyone ELSE killed.
bird_4_a.jpg   bird_4_b.jpg   bird_4_c.jpg   bird_4_d.jpg   bird_4_e.jpg  


Last edited by HockaLouis; 06-03-2012 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:11 PM   #29
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Hock, let me ask you this question then, would you stand 10 feet away from someone with a shotgun loaded with #4 birdshot and let them shoot you with it? i wouldn't! even wearing heavy clothing.

even in your pictures i see at least 4-5 inches of penetration and very localized shot pattern.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:13 PM   #30
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Mr. Wray, here are pictures of those PDX1's out of an 18.5" smooth bore 12 gauge at 15 feet hitting a refrigerator. I do not have any pictures of the back end where they exited but I can tell you that the 00 buck stopped on the inside and the slugs went straight through. Well one did, the other got caught in a spring since it sent through the motor
image-2850864505.jpg   image-959224657.jpg  
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