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Old 06-03-2012, 07:52 PM   #11
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00 Buckshot and Rifled Slug in shotgun.

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Old 06-03-2012, 08:05 PM   #12
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my choices follow MrWray for many of the same reasons. i use #4 birdshot loaded in the mag tube and then there are five OO buckshot in the buttstock carrier. i agree most encounters will happen at 20 feet or less in the home and as stated before, and my informal testing mirrors what MrWray posted, i have full confidence it what i have selected.

i will say this, you need complete confidence in the load you select for this purpose and to have that, you need to go out and practice with the loads you have selected to know what they will do in your firearm. every shotgun will behave differently, just as different brands of ammo will perform differently. don't just assume or take someone else's word or suggestion on these matters, go out and do your own analysis to see how well the shotgun and ammo perform together.

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Old 06-03-2012, 08:08 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSGN_Doc
I prefer buckshot #4 and larger. #1 or 0 are my prefered, but 00 is most available.

I do like tight patterns to ensure I get the benefit of each and every pellet on a badguy. When you break down a shotgun payload to individual pellets, they aren't that potent by themselves and a shotgun derives it's strength as a defensive weapon from all of the energy and tissue damage it gets from having multiple projectiles striking a target all at once and making a larger traumatic wound, resulting in more blood loss and damage to organs. If using a traditional 9 pellet buckshot load, a loss of a pellet is a loss of 11 percent of it's potential.

As far a reduced loads go, some of it has to do with reducing recoil, but the side effect seems to alos be tighter patterns from less deformation of shot. Faster follow ups are another benefit. I personally don't mind shooting full power loads, as they are what I use in qualifications.

I don't trust bird shot in the defensive role because it lack penetration in flesh, or at least reliable penetration. Having the story related of a 5 foot 10 inch 200 pound male who was picked up on his front porch with a shotgun wound to the chest, where he walked to the ambulance didn't inspire a lot of confidence to me in bird shot. He was transported to the hospital, where he had been reported as a buckshot wound, but the surgeon found #6 shot in his chest. Most stopped before the ribcage. A single pellet made it to his pericadrium (Tissue surrounding the heart). No lung damage, no pneumo/hemothorax, just a big bloody wound, where he didn't loose that much blood.

To incapacitate a person you need to either hit the central nervous system or make them lose blood rapidly. The FBI and International Wound Ballistics Association have found that a minimum of 12 inches of penetration in flesh gives the best chance for causing incapacitation in a human. Buckshot , sized #4 and up meets this standard. No birdshot really does so reliably. Add clothing, shots that may encounter bones of the arms, intermediate objects and just meeting the minimum may not be quite enough.

As a defensive weapon shotgunning aint just shotgunning. It's about fighting. I tend to think of a shotgun more like a short range rifle that hits with multiple projectiles with each pull of the trigger.

Teh biggest drawbacks of a shotgun in a fight are it's limited ammo capacity when compared to mag fed rifles or pistols. It takes more manipulation to keep it fed. Ammo is bulky. Ranage is limited to short range with buckshot by the ability to keep shot on a target. So 25 yards is about it for a shotgun using shot if you don't have a modified gun that has been back bored and Vang Comped to get really tight patterns which may get you out to 40 yards.
Beyond paterning distances that will keep shot on a torso, it's time to switch to slugs, and we're back to using it like a rifle with potentially poor sights for precision.

Shotguns are good tools for fighting but a good understanding of them and heir limitations is essential. Aslo a good understanding of the shooters limitations are essential, and really choosing to use a shotgun in a fight requires a lot of training and practice if you really want to get good at it. I consider myself o.k. with a shotgun, but I've got a long way to go before I consider myself good with one for fighting. I'd rather stick with an easier to manipulate platform like an AR or AK. Slapping another mag in is much easier by comparison under stress than feeding individual rounds in the ejection port or in the mag tube. However I'm trying to improve my proficiency with any tool that may be available for defense.
I dont understand that FBI 12" "minimum" penetration BS. A persons vital organs are only a few inches beneath their skin at the most. Maybe a fat person with a huge belly and breast region will fit this criteria. A short range center mass hit with #4 will put a good size hole in you and destroy any vital organ it makes contact with "ive seen it". The last shotgun wound i seen was with #4, you could put your fist in the wound and his heart was un-recognizable.my statements about #4 isnt opinion. Would i use it past what i tested it?NO but it is devestating within 10ft, and depending on shotgun even further
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:09 PM   #14
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For intruders and perps that I have time to react to, I prefer 12 gauge 00 buckshot.

For intruders who catch me by surprise, or for OC work in the immediate neighborhood, samie-same, I use 230 grain FMJ 45ACP.

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Old 06-03-2012, 08:10 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWray View Post
I dont understand that FBI 12" "minimum" penetration BS. A persons vital organs are only a few inches beneath their skin at the most. Maybe a fat person with a huge belly and breast region will fit this criteria. A short range center mass hit with #4 will put a good size hole in you and destroy any vital organ it makes contact with "ive seen it". The last shotgun wound i seen was with #4, you could put your fist in the wound and his heart was un-recognizable.my statements about #4 isnt opinion. Would i use it past what i tested it?NO but it is devestating within 10ft.
USN SEAL teams have actually discovered that #4 is not that great.

They now use 00 buck almost exclusively.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanBaccha View Post
00 Buckshot and Rifled Slug in shotgun.
This is a really good combo for bears. I would alternate them with 00 buckshot firing first.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kytowboater View Post
Is this open to any weapon or shotguns? I can't keep guns laying around with my daughter. Have my 1911 loaded with 185 grain critical defense. If and I mean IF I can get to my shotguns, it's 00buck in 12 gauge. Remmington 870 express super mag modified choke, not sure of barrel length. Gun is stock no short barrel or anything. I have an apartment so I'm screwed anyway I go.

Or I will load #8 in low brass that I have too.
You just need to get a gunsafe, then keep the loaded guns inside the safe, and locked. You can put the 45ACP on the top shelf out of reach, and then keep the safe opened whenever you are home. If you are still worried about her touching it, don't rack a round into the chamber, keep it in condition 3 (loaded but not chambered).
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:19 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoobee View Post
USN SEAL teams have actually discovered that #4 is not that great.

They now use 00 buck almost exclusively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoobee View Post
This is a really good combo for bears. I would alternate them with 00 buckshot firing first.
shoobee, you have completely missed the point again! we are not talking combat situations but HOME DEFENCE! they are completely different scenarios and require different types of loads. if i were in a combat situation, using a shotgun, or in the woods with a possible encounter with a bear, yes i would want and advocate using OO buckshot or even slugs. but in the home at distances of 20 feet or less for an intruder, #4 birdshot will work.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:24 PM   #19
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I thought about doing the same test with the Winchester PDX1 load that i have today

20120513_115208-1.jpg

,if anyone would be interested in seeing it.

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Old 06-03-2012, 08:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWray View Post
I dont understand that FBI 12" "minimum" penetration BS. A persons vital organs are only a few inches beneath their skin at the most. Maybe a fat person with a huge belly and breast region will fit this criteria. A short range center mass hit with #4 will put a good size hole in you and destroy any vital organ it makes contact with "ive seen it". The last shotgun wound i seen was with #4, you could put your fist in the wound and his heart was un-recognizable.my statements about #4 isnt opinion. Would i use it past what i tested it?NO but it is devestating within 10ft.
The FBI minimums are based on variables within a gunfight. They consider the need to possibly shoot a suspect at odd angles and not just front on. A torso is about 18 inches accross. But if you have to go through a shoulder it may be about 12 inches to the heart. Add clothing or the fact that someone could shoot from behind cover, then you need extra penetration that lighter shot will not defeat and still retain enough energy to ensure the kind of damage that you witnessed.

Also add in different environments and how people dress and it becomes different if you are shooting someone down here in swampy coastal Georgia who wears a t shirt, shorts and flip flops, versus shooting a guy wearing 5 layers of clothing in the windy city of Chicago when it's -5 degrees out. That can be a lot to ask of some little round lead balls to get into the vitals.

Gun fights are not the same as shooting a board or a paper target on a static range. That can tell us a lot about patterning, and general accuracy, but you add the third dimension of penetration and it's gets more complicated. Also flesh and flexible clothing does not behave the same as paper or wood. Back that wood board with another that is tightly affixed to it and I bet the results might be a bit different because you have more wood fibers to disperse the energy of the shot. Put clothing or something a bit more fluid in front of it that can flex with the load and I bet the results are a bit different. Wood is a funny medium. I've worked with it in primative bow making and if you exceed it's bend it fractures and spinters and looks a lot like what you have in your picture but it doesn't diperse energy radially like flesh it disperses it in a lienear fashion along the wood fibers.

I'm assuming you are talking about #4 buck shot and not #4 bird shot, or am I wrong?

Here is a video I posted a link to in the other thread that we hijacked. View around the 5 minute mark and you will see that by having bird shot strike dry wall before hitting plywood the penetration is very different than the reuslts you got. It is that lack of dependable penetration and those variables that drive my decision toward buck shot. Also the sort of stuff the FBI and others involved in wound ballistics reserch have the established 12 inches as their minimum for penetration.

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