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Old 08-15-2009, 12:42 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Defender View Post
I'm aware of that, but that does nothing to change the fact that neither the M1 or M3 can be properly classified as gas-operated shotguns. Go check it out on Benelli's own site. Check it out on any military or firearms aficionado site. You will NOT see the M1 or M3 classified as gas-operated, because TECHNICALLY they are not.

As far as which Benelli LAPD SWAT uses, I'd say neither one of us is wrong there. I know they started using M1's in the late 90's, and don't doubt that M3's have since entered the fold. However, that doesn't mean that the M1 has been discontinued. I'm betting that both are seeing use, depending on the job at hand and the personal preference of different officers.

However, there IS a difference in the discussion if we're discussing the M3 rather than the M1.

That's because the M3 is a dual-action shotgun. It can be operated in semi-automatic mode, or switched over to pump action mode.

In pump action mode, the M3 has NO problem cycling low velocity rounds, since like any pump the cycling is done manually with your arm.

Though your criticism of Benelli's being unable to cycle low velocity rounds may apply to the M1, your criticism fails when applied to the M3, which can be operated in pump action mode---thus making it an EXCELLENT shotgun for door entry purposes.
I would agree, and this has been the best discussion thus far so kudos to you.

The M3 has two seperate methods of operation, and this was instigated by Benelli BECAUSE of the criticism of the low pressure rounds and the cycling problems.

However, when I talked to the LAPD Press group, I asked SPECIFICALLY what weapon the LAPD SWAT team used for their entry gun. That was a specific question because my entire post was related to WHY Pierce County SWAT didn't stay with their Benellis.

LAPD SWAT uses the modified 870. They don't use the M3. Why? I don't know. Your arguement makes sense, but they don't use them. Probably because they know something we don't.

Now, no matter what slick add campagin, no matter how someone wants to spin the sales pitch, that action is NOT cycling itself.

Without the compression of the gas, several things in that gun won't happen. Not the least of which is, you aren't chambering the next round...

Inertia is driven by something. And that inertia isn't caused because a firing pin struck a primer.

Take a shotgun cartridge with no powder or shot in it, put it in your Benelli and pull the trigger with a regular, good old, .12 gauge shell behind it. I bet it doesn't cycle.

Why?

Because there is no gas being compressed and there is no pressure being bult up....

Call it what you want - but it's still a gas driven system...

JD
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Old 08-15-2009, 02:06 AM   #42
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DISCLAIMER: I have never claimed that everything I say is the indisputable gospel truth. I am occasionally wrong, and I readily admit it when I'm wrong. Nothing said in the following post is meant to personally attack or offend Mr. Dillinger. If JD or anybody else feels that something I said below is offensive, than that is their personal perception and opinion, which they are entitled to. However, it is NOT my intention.

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Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
That thread was dead since 07.21
Most forums don't have a problem with members going back two or three months. If you don't want us commenting on three week old threads, why don't you start locking them?

If there's some rule I'm unaware of that states we're not supposed to comment on threads more than a few days old, please advise me now. Sheesh, it's not like I'm digging up two year old threads.

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You ressurected it just to take a shot, at me, and still didn’t site a source. I had to go and get that, and then you still want to spin the subject.
You weren't even mentioned in that post. I don't think the folks at Pierce County PD are losing any sleep over what I said. Quit taking things so personally, JD.

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Um, no. Any modern .45 in good working condition should handle +P just fine is not definitive evidence, it’s your opinion, and it was not a complete statement.
I NEVER claimed it was "definitive" evidence. If you consult a good dictionary, you'll find that "should" does NOT mean "absolute" or "definitive".

It was obviously a GENERAL statement, not intended to be taken hyper-literally like you're doing.

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Opinion. No source sited.
I didn't realize that every single statement I make here has to be sourced.

Neither you nor any of the other members cite sources for everything you post. Discussions would get bogged down with minutiae and not be interesting or stimulating.

You didn't cite a source for your claim about Benelli's not cycling low velocity rounds well, and your claim is incorrect regarding the Benelli M3 and M4.

And just because someone cites a source, doesn't necessarily mean they're automatically right. Sources can be wrong, and even the experts can sometimes be wrong. There are differing opinions on a lot of major topics, even among the experts in virtually any given field.

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Opinion. The opinion wasn’t facturely accurate and your opinion could have been taken at face value and could have hurt a companies business.
Your statement about Benelli's not handling low velocity rounds well, is incorrect when applied to the M3 and M4, both of which will handle low velocity rounds without any problem.

Your statement was also incomplete, because you didn't mention that it did not apply to the M3 and M4.

The M3 can be pump operated, and the M4 is gas operated, thus they have no problems whatsoever with low velocity rounds.

So your claim was both incorrect and incomplete, and could have hurt Benelli's business.

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Opinion. Kimber makes a good weapon, but King of the Hill in semi custom 1911’s?? Really?!
In sales, they most certainly are. Having been a dealer on the gun show circuit for about a quarter of a century, and being a subscriber to firearms trade journals that have sales information not generally privy to the public, I can state without doubt that Kimber is the biggest seller of production and semi-custom 1911's on the planet.

And if you need sources, please contact Kimber and LAPD SWAT. When looking for a new primary duty pistol a few years back, LAPD SWAT extensively tested every major brand of 1911 on the market, and Kimber outperformed every other 1911 provided.

It came out clearly ahead of Springfield, Colt, Para etc. Thus LAPD SWAT chose the Kimber TLE Custom II for their primary duty sidearm. LAPD SWAT has had their Kimber's for a few years now, and are quite pleased with them.

The LAPD Special Investigation Section chose the Kimber SIS as their primary duty sidearm after extensive testing, and are also very pleased with them.

Don't take my word for it, contact them. And don't try to write me off as a Kimber "fanboy" who's never fired anything else. I've owned Springfield's, Colt's, Para's etc. over the last 30+ years.
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Old 08-15-2009, 03:00 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Defender View Post



Most forums don't have a problem with members going back two or three months. If you don't want us commenting on three week old threads, why don't you start locking them?

If there's some rule I'm unaware of that states we're not supposed to comment on threads more than a few days old, please advise me now. Sheesh, it's not like I'm digging up two year old threads.
You have been a member since Feb of 2008 - where was ALL this knowledge when it was first posted. Honestly, it's like you just found this bookmark and wanted to check back in on the forum.


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Originally Posted by Defender View Post

You weren't even mentioned in that post. I don't think the folks at Pierce County PD are losing any sleep over what I said. Quit taking things so personally, JD.
Well, you clearly had a problem with what I posted, and wanted to call out "the previous poster" but lacked the sand to call me out directly....


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Originally Posted by Defender View Post
I NEVER claimed it was "definitive" evidence. If you consult a good dictionary, you'll find that "should" does NOT mean "absolute" or "definitive".

It was obviously a GENERAL statement, not intended to be taken hyper-literally like you're doing.
Yeah, and anyone that was reading your response would read into it that EVERY modern pistol WILL handle +p loads.

The difference is posting that, and understanding the ramifications of that statement...


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Originally Posted by Defender View Post
I didn't realize that every single statement I make here has to be sourced.

Neither you nor any of the other members cite sources for everything you post. Discussions would get bogged down with minutiae and not be interesting or stimulating.

You didn't cite a source for your claim about Benelli's not cycling low velocity rounds well, and your claim is incorrect regarding the Benelli M3 and M4.

And just because someone cites a source, doesn't necessarily mean they're automatically right. Sources can be wrong, and even the experts can sometimes be wrong. There are differing opinions on a lot of major topics, even among the experts in virtually any given field.
And just because you lope in out of nowhere and post some opinions, that doesn't mean they are correct, or factual.

Given the response from your fellow forum members, I would say your posts lead themselves to more open for question, than fact based information....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defender View Post
Your statement about Benelli's not handling low velocity rounds well, is incorrect when applied to the M3 and M4, both of which will handle low velocity rounds without any problem.

Your statement was also incomplete, because you didn't mention that it did not apply to the M3 and M4.

The M3 can be pump operated, and the M4 is gas operated, thus they have no problems whatsoever with low velocity rounds.

So your claim was both incorrect and incomplete, and could have hurt Benelli's business.
And your claim that Pierce County PD didn't know what they were talking about and LAPD SWAT was the end all, beat all definitive, in YOUR OPINION ?!?! You re-opened this thread talking about exactly that!

Where was your source? There wasn't one. I had to check on that FOR YOU to give the forum some real information.

But you want to sit here and claim that you are the ultimate authority in all things tactical and operational based.

You have been asked by 4 supporting members as to your background, and where you get your "operational history" and you have yet to answer any of them....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Defender View Post
In sales, they most certainly are. Having been a dealer on the gun show circuit for about a quarter of a century, and being a subscriber to firearms trade journals that have sales information not generally privy to the public, I can state without doubt that Kimber is the biggest seller of production and semi-custom 1911's on the planet.

And if you need sources, please contact Kimber and LAPD SWAT. When looking for a new primary duty pistol a few years back, LAPD SWAT extensively tested every major brand of 1911 on the market, and Kimber outperformed every other 1911 provided.
I haven't disputed that. And I have FREQUENTLY posted that both LAPD & Tacoma PD, whom we do business with in our shop, have switched BACK to 1911's made by Kimber....

HOWEVER:

To say they are the BEST semi production house in te 1911 market is YOUR OPINION.

I disagree. I would put SEVERAL "semi production" 1911's against a Kimber and feel VERY comfortable about my bet.

Now, you want to address some issues with your posts? Answer me this:

You have a 27 plus year gunsmith questioning YOUR OPINION.

You have a vetted and proven Spec-Ops Military Member questioning YOUR OPINION.

You have a member of law enforcement who has over 30 years in the trade questioning YOUR OPINION.

You have a military member and firearms certified trainer of over 10 years questioning YOUR OPINION.

I am the smallest fish in this pond. I have 7 years of apprentice gunsmith in a VERY well respected gunshop, but compared to these other people who are questioning what you are posting, you have picked the wrong dog for this fight...

Of your time here, I can assure you this. I am not out to get you. I won't ban you and I certainly won't issue you a time out.

However, and please hear me on this, you have rubbed SEVERAL members of this forum the wrong way in your posts. These people are contributing members here and they feel that you are giving out information that is not correct or incomplete.

I am not the source of this. This is people who are your fellow forum members who are saying that your posts are caustic. They are saying that your posts are aggressive. They are saying that your posts are incomplete and need clarification.

What do you want man? You want me to give you a free pass to post whatever you want?! You want me to put you on IGNORE and let you deal with the rest of the forum?

Fine. You are no longer on my view list. I am not going to see another of your posts. I am not going to take you off my ignore list. You are free to deal with the rest of the forum with your posts.

I am not going to make this a personal vendetta because this forum means more to me than any beef with you EVER could. Post what you want - but know that the forum is not receiving your message well and you are being questioned about your "views"....



JD
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Old 08-15-2009, 12:52 PM   #44
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Wow. Apparently I missed this thread. Defender- You may know what you're talking about, but you're coming off as an ass when you say it. I know it's possible to take things the wrong way (as I do sometimes), but most guys here have the same opinion of you. Change your tone, bro.

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Old 08-17-2009, 10:00 PM   #45
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Default Mossberg 930

Relatively cheap ($500), 7+1 semi-auto, integrated Pica Rail, center-bored so can take it all (00/000 buck and below, rifled slugs, sabot slugs, etc.), user-friendly sights, shoots all day and barks for more...

What more can I say?

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