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Old 08-13-2009, 07:46 AM   #31
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This thread went South. Was looking for input. I do appreciate Asmel piping in though. Anyone else have a hand on the values? Thanks
WAY South!

If you're a Rambo type looking to breech a lot of doors with your shotgun, please disregard my advice.

However, if you're looking for a darn good tactical HOME DEFENSE shotgun, Benelli will get the job done in a superior manner.
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Old 08-13-2009, 09:06 AM   #32
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I avoid all firearms 'tactical' related anymore. It seems like when they add 'tactical' to any firearm the price goes up.

I simply use a mossberg 500 w/ an 18.5" barrel as my home defense shotgun.

As Dillinger pointed out earlier the lawyers will ream you for even having a tactical shotgun if you ever do have to use it. Stupid, but it's the way of the libtards.

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Old 08-13-2009, 09:21 AM   #33
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I avoid all firearms 'tactical' related anymore. It seems like when they add 'tactical' to any firearm the price goes up.

I simply use a mossberg 500 w/ an 18.5" barrel as my home defense shotgun.

As Dillinger pointed out earlier the lawyers will ream you for even having a tactical shotgun if you ever do have to use it. Stupid, but it's the way of the libtards.
I'm not worried about what the "libtards" think, when my life is on the line.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

The OP wanted a recommendation on a tactical semi-auto, and that's what I gave him.

ANY shotgun with an 18.5" barrel, semi-auto or pump, will put a shyster lawyer into a feeding frenzy when he gets you in court.

I'll go with what works best for me every time, which is a good semi-auto like the Benelli.
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:25 PM   #34
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Thanks for all of the above information regarding LAPD SWAT, which I was already well aware of.

I never claimed LAPD SWAT used the Benelli for door entry situations, but thank you for documenting that Benelli IS their PRIMARY DUTY shotgun.

Please be advised that the OP expressed interest in a tactical semi-automatic shotgun for HOME DEFENSE.

I'm betting SWAT team door entry capability isn't high on his list of desired features, since people in home defense situations are usually trying to PREVENT their doors from being breeched, not vice versa.
You really are a toolshed aren't you??

If you notice, I gave him a recommendation in the second post of the thread, which is from 07-07 by the way. Johnny comes lately and doesn't bother to read the thread, just wants to strut in here like Mr. Man and throw all sorts of info around.

Matt asked about the Saiga, in relation to the Benelli gas system. I explained what is KNOWN to be true about the Benelli, they don't fire underpowered loads well. Period.

I even said I liked the Benelli design, but that I prefered the FN model better.

Then you come in yesterday just looking to stir up shi'ite by taking a post out of context and completely making yourself look like an ass.

The A.G.O. website is THAT way ----------->

JD
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:33 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Defender View Post
I'm not worried about what the "libtards" think, when my life is on the line.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

The OP wanted a recommendation on a tactical semi-auto, and that's what I gave him.

ANY shotgun with an 18.5" barrel, semi-auto or pump, will put a shyster lawyer into a feeding frenzy when he gets you in court.

I'll go with what works best for me every time, which is a good semi-auto like the Benelli.
Look man, I am a hard-core Benelli fan. You are making me look bad. Stop arguing with everyone, and things will go a lot better for you. If you have an opinion, state it AS YOUR OPINION, not as fact. That is all...
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:08 PM   #36
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You really are a toolshed aren't you??

If you notice, I gave him a recommendation in the second post of the thread, which is from 07-07 by the way. Johnny comes lately and doesn't bother to read the thread, just wants to strut in here like Mr. Man and throw all sorts of info around.

Matt asked about the Saiga, in relation to the Benelli gas system. I explained what is KNOWN to be true about the Benelli, they don't fire underpowered loads well. Period.

I even said I liked the Benelli design, but that I prefered the FN model better.

Then you come in yesterday just looking to stir up shi'ite by taking a post out of context and completely making yourself look like an ass.

The A.G.O. website is THAT way ----------->

JD
Are your personal attacks, name-calling, rudeness and aggressiveness appropriate for this forum?

LAPD SWAT uses the Benelli M1, which is NOT gas operated. It uses a proprietary inertia recoil system.

Please explain how you can "compare" the gas system of a shotgun that doesn't even have a gas system.

The much newer Benelli M4 IS gas operated, and performs SUPERBLY in door entry situations.

The Benelli M4 is the primary combat shotgun of the U.S. Marine Corps, and is getting outstanding reviews from Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan. They've found it to be excellent for both general combat purposes and door entry.

The U.S. military has named it the "Joint Services Combat Shotgun", and the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S. Air Force and U.S. Coast Guard have approved it for duty use, and are currently in the process of acquiring substantial numbers of the M4.

Just this year, the M4 has been approved by the LAPD for duty and off-duty use by its regular officers. It has NOT been officially adopted by LAPD SWAT yet, but that is in the works.
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:48 PM   #37
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SWAT doesn't use the M1 - they use the M3 Super 90, according to the person at the LAPD Press Office. If they use the M1, there is still no difference in teh discussion, the same principles apply.

In relation to the "gas system" - inertia driven systems harness the energy that is dispelled at the ignition of the round. The gas pressure does cause a rotating bolthead to unlock and cycle the weapon.

While the "gas" itself might not be used to cycle the weapon, as in an AR, the fact of the matter is, the weapon uses the force of the round exploding down the barrel to cause a change in the locked action.

The very reason this weapon has a problem with low velocity rounds is that the energy expended IS NOT enough to cause the weapon to cycle.

The "Inertia System" is really a modified gas system similar to an op rod driven platform - they operate in much the same way. The gas doesn't enter the chamber to cycle the action either, but the gas is harnessed to power the op rod into cycling the action.

This is just an updated, modern version of a design that dates back decades...

Now, onto more important matters, since you would like to discuss it.

Your recent posts in several threads have been caustic, they have been opinion laced as fact and they have been incomplete on information that can be vital to someone who doesn't know better.

An example of this was how you went off about chambering +P ammo in a list of weapons to the OP. The information relayed was accurate, but it wasn't complete.

Here. On this forum, we try to provide full information, especially when it comes to questions by people who are not as knowledgable as other members.


For an example of how your fellow forum members are receiving your posts, refer to: The Most Lethal Round thread.

You are seen to be arguing with people merely for the sake of an argument, and several of your fellow forum members are indeed feeling that you are here merely for the sake of the argument. They have even stated that they are willing to have a cordial discussion with you about the "facts", but feel you are escalating for no real purpose.

In three days you have received 4 flagged posts - and none of them were generated by me, or were FROM me. These came from other people who are interacting with you in other threads. These are your fellow forum members. Does that register??

Because I wanted to have an objective eye look into the matter, I asked one of the other Mods whom you have had NO interaction with look at your most recent posts.

The concensus was the same as your fellow forum members were reporting, you seem to want to argue and you seem to want post opinion as facts. Older threads are dug up and your opinion is inserted, as facts, and when called on it, you don't like it.

Now, if this isn't the place for you, if you might be happier somewhere else, if we just aren't as in the know as you are - then that is fine. Let us part ways and everyone will be happy.

However, if you want to join the forum in discussion, and you can get past the "I'm Right - You're Wrong" aspect, the guys here are quite knowledgeable and open to a world of discussion.

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Old 08-14-2009, 11:11 PM   #38
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Look man, I am a hard-core Benelli fan. You are making me look bad. Stop arguing with everyone, and things will go a lot better for you. If you have an opinion, state it AS YOUR OPINION, not as fact. That is all...
Please show me where I stated that the OP MUST buy a Benelli. Please show me where I claimed it is the ONLY good tactical shotgun on the market. Please show me where I've proclaimed everything I say to be incontrovertible fact.

I haven't said one bad thing about FN, Saiga, Remington or any other brand.

I said the Benelli was MY RECOMMENDATION. The OP and everybody else in this thread are free to accept or ignore my recommendation.

When I'm wrong about something I readily admit it, as I did in another thread when I misspoke and incorrectly stated that Springfield .45's were assembled in Brazil---when I meant to say the frames were machined in Brazil.

I don't argue in every thread, and if you examine my recent posts, you'll find that I have COMMENDED several people on their choices in firearms. Even when I do NOT personally own that particular gun or brand.

Now PLEASE try to realize that I speak in a straightforward manner, and don't get all offended when I do so.
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Old 08-15-2009, 12:01 AM   #39
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Here’s where you started:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Defender View Post
LAPD SWAT is LOVING their Benelli's, and swear by them. They're not getting rid of them any time soon.
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But I'm sure Pierce County SWAT is the more elite unit, so what does LAPD SWAT know?!
That thread was dead since 07.21
You ressurected it just to take a shot, at me, and still didn’t site a source. I had to go and get that, and then you still want to spin the subject.

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Any modern .45 in good working condition should handle +P just fine.


Um, no. Any modern .45 in good working condition should handle +P just fine is not definitive evidence, it’s your opinion, and it was not a complete statement.
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Not to mention the 9mm is more powerful and a proven better man-stopper.


Opinion. No source sited.
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Actually, most of their production 1911's have been assembled in Brazil for quite a few years now.


Opinion. The opinion wasn’t facturely accurate and your opinion could have been taken at face value and could have hurt a companies business.
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Agreed, and you were wise to choose a Kimber over a Colt.
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The first 1911 I ever owned was a Colt, and I have fond memories of that pistol. However, in the 21st century, Kimber is the king of the hill when it comes to production and semi-custom 1911's.
Opinion. Kimber makes a good weapon, but King of the Hill in semi custom 1911’s?? Really?!
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Old 08-15-2009, 12:23 AM   #40
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SWAT doesn't use the M1 - they use the M3 Super 90, according to the person at the LAPD Press Office. If they use the M1, there is still no difference in teh discussion, the same principles apply.

In relation to the "gas system" - inertia driven systems harness the energy that is dispelled at the ignition of the round. The gas pressure does cause a rotating bolthead to unlock and cycle the weapon.

While the "gas" itself might not be used to cycle the weapon, as in an AR, the fact of the matter is, the weapon uses the force of the round exploding down the barrel to cause a change in the locked action.

The very reason this weapon has a problem with low velocity rounds is that the energy expended IS NOT enough to cause the weapon to cycle.

The "Inertia System" is really a modified gas system similar to an op rod driven platform - they operate in much the same way. The gas doesn't enter the chamber to cycle the action either, but the gas is harnessed to power the op rod into cycling the action.

This is just an updated, modern version of a design that dates back decades...
I'm aware of that, but that does nothing to change the fact that neither the M1 or M3 can be properly classified as gas-operated shotguns. Go check it out on Benelli's own site. Check it out on any military or firearms aficionado site. You will NOT see the M1 or M3 classified as gas-operated, because TECHNICALLY they are not.

As far as which Benelli LAPD SWAT uses, I'd say neither one of us is wrong there. I know they started using M1's in the late 90's, and don't doubt that M3's have since entered the fold. However, that doesn't mean that the M1 has been discontinued. I'm betting that both are seeing use, depending on the job at hand and the personal preference of different officers.

However, there IS a difference in the discussion if we're discussing the M3 rather than the M1.

That's because the M3 is a dual-action shotgun. It can be operated in semi-automatic mode, or switched over to pump action mode.

In pump action mode, the M3 has NO problem cycling low velocity rounds, since like any pump the cycling is done manually with your arm.

Though your criticism of Benelli's being unable to cycle low velocity rounds may apply to the M1, your criticism fails when applied to the M3, which can be operated in pump action mode---thus making it an EXCELLENT shotgun for door entry purposes.
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