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Old 10-08-2008, 02:46 AM   #21
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genie if you take a close look out in that pasture you might get a glimpse of my fat ass eating a crow. You too are good sport.

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Old 10-08-2008, 09:14 PM   #22
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I do not differentiate between blow back, "inertia", and other recoil actions because, as far as I am concerned, they are all actuated by the gun, or a portion thereof, being set in motion as a result of the charge exiting the gun to the front, as per Mr. Newton's Principles.
In a blowback, only the bolt moves back, and the mass of the bolt is such that it does not get moving too soon.
In a long recoil action, the barrel and bolt move rearward together against spring action until they unlock at the rear of travel. Short recoil is similar, but relies on the inertia of the parts set in motion to complete the cycle.
In the so called Benelli "inertia" action, the only reason the bolt spring compresses is because the whole rest of the gun is moving to the rear in recoil. The bolt unlocks, and then the whole bolt continues to the rear, in recoil, while you stop the rest of the gun. Recoil is not a well loved phenomenon, hence the sales term "Inertia" is utilized. That is not to say it is not an elegantly simple and very reliable system, but if you think there is no recoil involved, you haven't touched off a 3-1/2 incher in a Super Black Eagle.

P.S. - Be careful ! Since I have had to reduce salt intake, crow tastes much worse. Before that I had about gotten used to everything but those darned feathers.

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Old 10-08-2008, 11:23 PM   #23
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I do not differentiate between blow back, "inertia", and other recoil actions because, as far as I am concerned, they are all actuated by the gun, or a portion thereof, being set in motion as a result of the charge exiting the gun to the front, as per Mr. Newton's Principles.
In a blowback, only the bolt moves back, and the mass of the bolt is such that it does not get moving too soon.
In a long recoil action, the barrel and bolt move rearward together against spring action until they unlock at the rear of travel. Short recoil is similar, but relies on the inertia of the parts set in motion to complete the cycle.
In the so called Benelli "inertia" action, the only reason the bolt spring compresses is because the whole rest of the gun is moving to the rear in recoil. The bolt unlocks, and then the whole bolt continues to the rear, in recoil, while you stop the rest of the gun. Recoil is not a well loved phenomenon, hence the sales term "Inertia" is utilized. That is not to say it is not an elegantly simple and very reliable system, but if you think there is no recoil involved, you haven't touched off a 3-1/2 incher in a Super Black Eagle.

P.S. - Be careful ! Since I have had to reduce salt intake, crow tastes much worse. Before that I had about gotten used to everything but those darned feathers.

On the contrary, on the long diatribe I gave I said time and time again that all of the systems you mention work because of recoil. I also have no idea where this "no recoil involved" bit came from because it's the last thing I would say (plus, I don't have any good crow recipes so I wouldn't say it even in jest).

But even if all of those guns operate on the recoil principle, they do it in different ways. A blow-back action will work even if the gun remains completely stationary, because only the bolt needs to move. In an inertial system, by contrast, the whole gun needs to move, even if just a fraction of an inch, so an inertial gun can't remain completely stationary.

Just because you don't diferentiate doesn't mean everybody else doesn't. It helps to know what people are talking about when they talk about a given action. For example, we know that an inertial system can handle higher pressures than a short recoil or a blow-back system, because of the way it locks. We also know that it is not well suited for light-recoiling, low pressure cartridges, particularly in overtly-heavy guns. It is in details like these where the differences become important. Indeed, inertia is just a good a word as recoil, but using the generic term "recoil" does not give you one clue as to what makes an inertial system tic. Words were invented to convey different ideas, so I humbly suggest that we use them as such.

If we don't like to diferentiate, we may as well just say that all guns go boom and leave it at that. Yeah, that'll be useful.
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Old 10-09-2008, 02:42 AM   #24
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My point was not to rebuke you. Sorry if you took it that way. Just my long winded way of refusing to buy into the tidal wave of I-talian inspired hoopla that has invaded the shotgun world. My resentment is alas tinged with jealousy too, I must admit. They have managed to make higher prices into a selling point. It's kinda like the Barrett-Jackson car auction. The purpose is not to save money, but to spend as much as possible so you can brag about it. Fitting considering the economic times we are in.

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Old 10-09-2008, 03:59 AM   #25
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Quote "But even if all of those guns operate on the recoil principle, they do it in different ways. A blow-back action will work even if the gun remains completely stationary, because only the bolt needs to move. In an inertial system, by contrast, the whole gun needs to move, even if just a fraction of an inch, so an inertial gun can't remain completely stationary."

Nopal: Please explain what you mean by your use of the term "inertial system" and please give examples by make and model of gun. In other words what gun are you suggesting will not function if you were to place the stock against a non movable object and pull the trigger causing the gun to fire but not allowing the gun to function because it cannot move. I have eaten so much crow over this I am starting to aquire a taste, feathers and all.

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Old 10-09-2008, 04:35 PM   #26
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My point was not to rebuke you. Sorry if you took it that way. Just my long winded way of refusing to buy into the tidal wave of I-talian inspired hoopla that has invaded the shotgun world. My resentment is alas tinged with jealousy too, I must admit. They have managed to make higher prices into a selling point. It's kinda like the Barrett-Jackson car auction. The purpose is not to save money, but to spend as much as possible so you can brag about it. Fitting considering the economic times we are in.
Point well taken. I've always kinda felt that way about stuff like 'cryo-chokes' and other "innovations" myself. They are innovations that work alright, but they work only for the pocket book of the manufacturers.
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Old 10-09-2008, 04:56 PM   #27
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Quote "But even if all of those guns operate on the recoil principle, they do it in different ways. A blow-back action will work even if the gun remains completely stationary, because only the bolt needs to move. In an inertial system, by contrast, the whole gun needs to move, even if just a fraction of an inch, so an inertial gun can't remain completely stationary."

Nopal: Please explain what you mean by your use of the term "inertial system" and please give examples by make and model of gun. In other words what gun are you suggesting will not function if you were to place the stock against a non movable object and pull the trigger causing the gun to fire but not allowing the gun to function because it cannot move. I have eaten so much crow over this I am starting to aquire a taste, feathers and all.
Benelli Inertial Driven system shotguns, which includes pretty much all Benelli semi-auto shotguns in production today (Montefeltro, Super Sport, Super Black Eagle, etc.).

These work on the principle that gun recoils and moves backward, if ever so slightly. As the gun moves, the rear of the bolt, which is more or less detached from the rest of the bolt body, resists that movement because of inertia. A spring between the rear of the bolt and the rest of the bolt body gets compressed and then bounces back once it overcomes the inertia from the rear of the bolt, pushing the rear of the bolt (and hence the whole bolt), backward.

Though the recoil compresses the spring, what cycles the bolt is not the recoil itself, but the rear of the bolt's inertia after it's been pushed back by the spring.

The spring is very short and strong, so the system is quite efficient. All it takes is a tiny fraction of an inch of relatively violent rearward acceleration (or forward, even) to make the system work (the kind of acceleration that the gun would get from a gunshot i.e.-recoil). However, if there is no movement whatsoever (let's say that you install the gun onto a very sturdy and unmoveable stand), there is no compression of the spring, and the bolt does not unlock and cycle.

How do I know this about inertial systems? I did my homework after my wife surprised me with a Super Sport II for our anniversary when all I wanted was a Wingmaster, but hey, I'll take it.
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:03 AM   #28
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genie if you take a close look out in that pasture you might get a glimpse of my fat ass eating a crow. You too are good sport.
I only wish my pasture were situated in your location. If only Bently-Nevada had seen fit to hire me.......but then, that was long ago. I wonder how much Carson City has changed since then, around 1982?
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Old 10-10-2008, 05:37 AM   #29
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Nopal: I just happen to have a couple of the Benni's you mentioned so I am going to take one and do a test, I will let you know.

Genie, Bentley sold out a few years ago but he is still going strong and I think he is close to 90. The area has changed a lot and like anywhere some for the good but we have a lot of meth and drug related crime. We have a lot of hard working Mexican population here now but unfortunately the gang banger types seem to follow and I personally think part of it is non English speaking crap.

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Old 10-11-2008, 12:28 AM   #30
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I've stayed out of this until now because yall were doing such a good job. I have to disagree with you however on benelli semiautos. I bought a benelli legacy 12 gauge new unfired with accs from a guy that won it at a drawing for 500$! YES,I checked to make SURE is wasn't "hot". Until I got that first benelli,I often wondered why/how people paid such a high price for them and what the big deal was about them. While I'm not going to get into the argument of different actions functioning,I've found that benellis (legacy)do indeed work VERY well with the lightest target loads,all the way to 3" magnums. All from a light gun and with little percieved recoil. Before my first benelli I was totally a gas man(browning and beretta). Althou it sometimes isn't worth it for the amount they want to charge,some "gadgets",ideas,and designs ARE indeed worth having. Otherwise,how would we ever improve or bring out new ideas?








Quote:
Originally Posted by Virginian View Post
My point was not to rebuke you. Sorry if you took it that way. Just my long winded way of refusing to buy into the tidal wave of I-talian inspired hoopla that has invaded the shotgun world. My resentment is alas tinged with jealousy too, I must admit. They have managed to make higher prices into a selling point. It's kinda like the Barrett-Jackson car auction. The purpose is not to save money, but to spend as much as possible so you can brag about it. Fitting considering the economic times we are in.
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