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Old 10-06-2012, 10:55 PM   #51
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I'm not picking on ya (heck, I'd probably like ya), but I would respectfully disagree with ya Vikingdad. Most "gun owners" are not "shooters." If they were, we would need a lot more shooting ranges. My dad owned guns, but he wasn't "a shooter". Oh he would go to a range once every couple of years. And he was pretty good at slow, deliberate, off-the-bench, rifle fire, but I don't think he would have fared well in a gun fight. Sure, most members of a forum like this are "shooters". But most gun owners don't belong to any gun forums. All I'm saying is that self defense entails a lot more than just point and pulling the trigger. From my experience, I still maintain that most gun owners are not at all prepared to defend them self with their weapon.

Are we still friends???????

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I mainly take issue with your stating your opinion as though it is fact. I would like to see some data on your claim. as I pointed out there are countless cases where people who have never touched a firearm before can have incredible accuracy. I have seen that myself (heck, my wife never practices yet she is easily accurate enough for defensive shooting. Sometimes it is years between the times she will go shooting.

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Old 10-07-2012, 12:46 AM   #52
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I mainly take issue with your stating your opinion as though it is fact. I would like to see some data on your claim. as I pointed out there are countless cases where people who have never touched a firearm before can have incredible accuracy. I have seen that myself (heck, my wife never practices yet she is easily accurate enough for defensive shooting. Sometimes it is years between the times she will go shooting. Still friends.
I'm glad we're still friends Vik. You can come shoot on my range any time. I don't have any hard data to support my claim other then my personal observations, and my own experience when I first started competing 30 years ago. I was a pretty damn good shot, but I still did miserably in my first few IPSC matches. I didn't follow good tactics, shot my gun dry, fumbled the reloads, didn't even see all of the bad guys, hit some hostages and bystanders, didn't use cover effectively, didn't get good hits on the targets because I was shooting to fast, cleared rooms in entirely the wrong way, moved while my gun was empty, took shots I shouldn't have, and didn't take shots I should have, etc. I was a typical rookie. These are timed events. Your score is your total hit value on all of the targets (less penalties ~ and there are lots of penalities) divided by your total time to complete that stage of fire. (There is actually more to it.) Shoot faster then your capable and you'll score poorly on the targets. Shoot to slow to get good hits and you'll score poorly. It's very challenging and you'll soon learn how poorly most do on their first time out. There are other types of matches, IDPA, USPSA, etc. It's fun just to go watch one. In some matches, you get to walk through each stage to plan your strategy. In others, you don't, and have to react in a split second to various scenarios. Mind you, all of these 1st time competitors are "shooters", not just gun owners. Can you imagine how an average non-shooting-gun owner would fare? Granted, none of this even comes close to the pressure one would experience in a real life confrontation, so throw that in, and an average gun owner just isn't prepared.

Sure, we've all heard of the Gramma who shoots an intruder. But even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then. I wouldn't wanna trust my safety or the safety of my loved ones to luck. I would rather take the training and be better prepared. My standard (and it's just my personal standard), is to consistently get 3 hits on a pie plate at 20 feet in under 3 seconds, from the draw (concealed carry). And that just covers the speed and accuracy part. Ya still need to know, understand, and practice the tactical stuff. But it's all loads of fun!

Semper Fi

Don <><
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:09 AM   #53
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I'm not picking on ya (heck, I'd probably like ya), but I would respectfully disagree with ya Vikingdad. Most "gun owners" are not "shooters." If they were, we would need a lot more shooting ranges. My dad owned guns, but he wasn't "a shooter". Oh he would go to a range once every couple of years. And he was pretty good at slow, deliberate, off-the-bench, rifle fire, but I don't think he would have fared well in a gun fight. Sure, most members of a forum like this are "shooters". But most gun owners don't belong to any gun forums. All I'm saying is that self defense entails a lot more than just point and pulling the trigger. From my experience, I still maintain that most gun owners are not at all prepared to defend them self with their weapon.

Are we still friends???????

Semper Fi

Don <><
I know people who shoot hundreds of rounds daily who only use a computer to order guns or ammo. I know a lot more people who shoot a lot who are computer illiterate. They are very capable of defending themselves, with or without a firearm. The use of a computer has nothing to do with one's proficiency with a firearm. In fact, I would say the average forum user is not capable of self defense with a firearm.

Obviously most forum users are not meeting with shooters and sharing information. When forum users want to try a gun they have to rent it. People who don't use forums have never considered renting a firearm. They know someone who owns the firearm they are interested in and ask to borrow it.

In my personal posts, when I have asked about a certain piece of equipment I never get any useful information. I always find someone in my real life that has used the item or can find what I am looking for at a fair price.
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:16 AM   #54
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I'm glad we're still friends Vik. You can come shoot on my range any time. I don't have any hard data to support my claim other then my personal observations, and my own experience when I first started competing 30 years ago. I was a pretty damn good shot, but I still did miserably in my first few IPSC matches. I didn't follow good tactics, shot my gun dry, fumbled the reloads, didn't even see all of the bad guys, hit some hostages and bystanders, didn't use cover effectively, didn't get good hits on the targets because I was shooting to fast, cleared rooms in entirely the wrong way, moved while my gun was empty, took shots I shouldn't have, and didn't take shots I should have, etc. I was a typical rookie. These are timed events. Your score is your total hit value on all of the targets (less penalties ~ and there are lots of penalities) divided by your total time to complete that stage of fire. (There is actually more to it.) Shoot faster then your capable and you'll score poorly on the targets. Shoot to slow to get good hits and you'll score poorly. It's very challenging and you'll soon learn how poorly most do on their first time out. There are other types of matches, IDPA, USPSA, etc. It's fun just to go watch one. In some matches, you get to walk through each stage to plan your strategy. In others, you don't, and have to react in a split second to various scenarios. Mind you, all of these 1st time competitors are "shooters", not just gun owners. Can you imagine how an average non-shooting-gun owner would fare? Granted, none of this even comes close to the pressure one would experience in a real life confrontation, so throw that in, and an average gun owner just isn't prepared.

Sure, we've all heard of the Gramma who shoots an intruder. But even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then. I wouldn't wanna trust my safety or the safety of my loved ones to luck. I would rather take the training and be better prepared. My standard (and it's just my personal standard), is to consistently get 3 hits on a pie plate at 20 feet in under 3 seconds, from the draw (concealed carry). And that just covers the speed and accuracy part. Ya still need to know, understand, and practice the tactical stuff. But it's all loads of fun!

Semper Fi

Don <><
Fair enough Genesis. As for me I have never competed in any events, nor have I had the opportunity to even train like that. I go to the range often and shoot at paper which helps me to be familiar with my guns. I am a very good shot with all of the guns I own (even the Mini14!).

My wife has her one gun, a Beretta .25, unfortunately I cannot for the life of me convince her to get something a bit larger and more effective but that's the way she is. She shoots her Beretta once in a blue moon, and hits a tea saucer (not a pie plate) at 25 feet consistently when she does. She knows that gun like the back of her hand. She was the victim of a home invasion robbery when she was in grade school where she and her mom were maced, bound up and blindfolded. She will not let that happen again. Ever. (Edit: I have told her that with the .25 she should just stick it in their chest and keep pulling the trigger until it goes "click")

In my experience the situation I am most likely to encounter will be waking up in the middle of the night in my own bed in my own house to the dog barking, I grab my gun and if there is a guy breaking into the house, I shoot the bastard and check for more bad guys.

There is a possibility that I could get carjacked I suppose. If I am driving my little Nissan pickup they can have it. If I am driving my F-350 it has a manual transmission and the gearshift comes off of the transmission when I pull it off. I just take it with me. That, combined with the fact that most punks who would steal a truck probably don't know how to drive a stick (especially if the stick is missing) might work in my favor. Notice that guns are not involved in a carjacking, this is because I live in CA.
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:35 AM   #55
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[QUOTE=Vikingdad;967022]Fair enough Genesis.

I'm in the Nicolet National Forest in Northeast Wisconsin (God's country). If you're ever out this way, I'll have the coffee and snacks ready, the soda cold (gave up drinking ~ can't afford it with all the shooting I do) and the range cleaned up. Now lay a big lip lock on that pretty bride of yours and tell her how special she is.

Semper Fi (I think I just made a new friend )

Don <><

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Old 10-07-2012, 01:46 AM   #56
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Fair enough Genesis. As for me I have never competed in any events, nor have I had the opportunity to even train like that. I go to the range often and shoot at paper which helps me to be familiar with my guns. I am a very good shot with all of the guns I own (even the Mini14!).

My wife has her one gun, a Beretta .25, unfortunately I cannot for the life of me convince her to get something a bit larger and more effective but that's the way she is. She shoots her Beretta once in a blue moon, and hits a tea saucer (not a pie plate) at 25 feet consistently when she does. She knows that gun like the back of her hand. She was the victim of a home invasion robbery when she was in grade school where she and her mom were maced, bound up and blindfolded. She will not let that happen again. Ever. (Edit: I have told her that with the .25 she should just stick it in their chest and keep pulling the trigger until it goes "click")

In my experience the situation I am most likely to encounter will be waking up in the middle of the night in my own bed in my own house to the dog barking, I grab my gun and if there is a guy breaking into the house, I shoot the bastard and check for more bad guys.

There is a possibility that I could get carjacked I suppose. If I am driving my little Nissan pickup they can have it. If I am driving my F-350 it has a manual transmission and the gearshift comes off of the transmission when I pull it off. I just take it with me. That, combined with the fact that most punks who would steal a truck probably don't know how to drive a stick (especially if the stick is missing) might work in my favor. Notice that guns are not involved in a carjacking, this is because I live in CA.
That is probably pretty true. The armed criminals are well protected. They can carry a gun but you cant. One of the reasons I moved to a free state.
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Old 10-07-2012, 02:18 AM   #57
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[quote=genesis;967040]

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Originally Posted by Vikingdad View Post
Fair enough Genesis.

I'm in the Nicolet National Forest in Northeast Wisconsin (God's country). If you're ever out this way, I'll have the coffee and snacks ready, the soda cold (gave up drinking ~ can't afford it with all the shooting I do) and the range cleaned up. Now lay a big lip lock on that pretty bride of yours and tell her how special she is.

Semper Fi (I think I just made a new friend )

Don <><
I don't get out that way much, but back when I was younger I visited Road America race course several times. That's the only time I've been to your state though. If I am ever in WI I will definitely get in touch. Y'all ever get to CA then look me up!
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Old 10-07-2012, 02:24 AM   #58
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That is probably pretty true. The armed criminals are well protected. They can carry a gun but you cant. One of the reasons I moved to a free state.
I figure most of the bad guys aren't gonna be trying to carjack my work truck, and my little Nissan is pretty rough. Not a lot of "bling" in my vehicles.

Oh, and I have a couple of razor pruning saws and a machete in the door pocket as well.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:45 PM   #59
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Here is a quick course on using a shotgun for self defense.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu83.htm

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Old 10-07-2012, 04:04 PM   #60
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I figure most of the bad guys aren't gonna be trying to carjack my work truck, and my little Nissan is pretty rough. Not a lot of "bling" in my vehicles.

Oh, and I have a couple of razor pruning saws and a machete in the door pocket as well.
My cousin had someone attempt to carjack him in his work truck. This didn't end well for the carjacker. Carjacking is akin to horse theft in the eyes of my Texan cousin. The carjacker got a crescent wrench across both eye sockets and pretty much ended that attempt with both eyes unable to focus due to eye socket blow out fractures.

His truck was targeted again outside his shop. That thief ended up shot for refusing to show his hands. Both incidents left my cousin in the clear.

Just be aware that the size and quality of the vehicle doesn't necessarily make it less of a target to someone who is desperate enough to steal s vehicle with a person in it or nearby. (Especially in Texas).
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