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Old 10-05-2012, 10:24 PM   #31
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I agree. As an owner of two semi-auto's for a while, I just bought a nice used Rem 870 the other day and I feel lots less confident with it, I could well imagine me screwing up with it under stress without lots of practice first.

But theres not much you as the operator can do wrong with a clean, reliable auto, just keep pulling the trigger.
The idiot factor combined with a highly stressful situation = keep it simple simple. IMHO any novice citizen would achieve better results with an auto.
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:04 PM   #32
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Unless one is trained on how to use it in close combat, a shot gun, or any gun for that matter, is of little value. Most people who own guns can't hit squat, because they seldom (if ever) practice , and that may well get them killed. They're living under a false sense of security just because they "have" a gun. They think all they have to do is pull the trigger and the bad guy will magically fall. WRONG ! Chances are they'll probably miss (yes ~ even with a shotgun) and cause the bad guy to start shooting. Now they're DEAD ! I'd wager that the average Joe with a gun would score miserably in a combat match (i.e. he'd be dead!) If you have a gun (any gun) for self defense, take some classes on how to use it effectively. It's not "what" you use that counts. IT'S HOW EFFECTIVELY YOU USE IT!

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Old 10-05-2012, 11:12 PM   #33
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The idiot factor combined with a highly stressful situation = keep it simple simple. IMHO any novice citizen would achieve better results with an auto.
+1

Even well trained LEOs and soldiers do better with an auto.

That's why the Marines adopted the Benelli M-4.
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:21 PM   #34
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+1

Even well trained LEOs and soldiers do better with an auto.

That's why the Marines adopted the Benelli M-4.
As I said the average peeps will perform better with an auto
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:10 AM   #35
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Unless one is trained on how to use it in close combat, a shot gun, or any gun for that matter, is of little value. Most people who own guns can't hit squat, because they seldom (if ever) practice , and that may well get them killed. They're living under a false sense of security just because they "have" a gun. They think all they have to do is pull the trigger and the bad guy will magically fall. WRONG ! Chances are they'll probably miss (yes ~ even with a shotgun) and cause the bad guy to start shooting. Now they're DEAD ! I'd wager that the average Joe with a gun would score miserably in a combat match (i.e. he'd be dead!) If you have a gun (any gun) for self defense, take some classes on how to use it effectively. It's not "what" you use that counts. IT'S HOW EFFECTIVELY YOU USE IT!

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Where's the DISLIKE BUTTON?? The truth is you have no FACTS to back up your CLAIM!!! I happen toKNOW many gun owners who have no FORMAL TRAINING yet they are not DEAD YET!!!!. Does that prove ANYTHING???

DAMNED RIGHT IT DOESN'T!!! But I do know that most of THEM know how to EFFECTIVELY USE THEIR GUNS, so much so that I have had many LEOs say that the guys I shoot with are BETTER with their FIRERAMS than many LEOs!!!


SO THERE!!!!
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:58 AM   #36
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Where's the DISLIKE BUTTON?? The truth is you have no FACTS to back up your CLAIM!!! I happen toKNOW many gun owners who have no FORMAL TRAINING yet they are not DEAD YET!!!!. Does that prove ANYTHING???

DAMNED RIGHT IT DOESN'T!!! But I do know that most of THEM know how to EFFECTIVELY USE THEIR GUNS, so much so that I have had many LEOs say that the guys I shoot with are BETTER with their FIRERAMS than many LEOs!!!

SO THERE!!!!
I second this I think the average shooter could do a lot better then the 20% hit rates of LEOs.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:03 AM   #37
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I would say that there are some gun owners who do not know how to operate their firearms, but to say "most" gun owners are of that stripe is a gross exaggeration. It is also widely recognized that a person who has never handled a gun in their life can and often does have excellent accuracy under extraordinary circumstances. Point and shoot, just like your finger. It is that simple for some.

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Old 10-06-2012, 10:22 AM   #38
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In England it is much more difficult to obtain firearms licences than in USA. Consequently all the gun owners I know are avid shooters and very proficient with their chosen weapons. However in a darkened room with some armed low life in your house as much firepower as possible can not be a bad thing.

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Old 10-06-2012, 02:07 PM   #39
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Where's the DISLIKE BUTTON?? The truth is you have no FACTS to back up your CLAIM!!! I happen toKNOW many gun owners who have no FORMAL TRAINING yet they are not DEAD YET!!!!. Does that prove ANYTHING???
DAMNED RIGHT IT DOESN'T!!! But I do know that most of THEM know how to EFFECTIVELY USE THEIR GUNS, so much so that I have had many LEOs say that the guys I shoot with are BETTER with their FIRERAMS than many LEOs!!! SO THERE!!!!
Hi Vikingdad. You need to open up and not hold back so much. So you hang out with some good shooters. That's great. Now don't get all bent out of shape with me. You mis-read my post. I didn't say merely having a gun would make them "dead". I said that if they had to "use" their gun to defend them self, they stand a good chance of ending up dead. I was simply encouraging people with guns to get some defensive training.

I can best most LEO's in IPSC matches, but I don't think the average non-competitor can. If you and some of your friends can out shoot a few LEO's, then you're an elite few. But let's say you're a terrific shot. That doesn't mean that you're automatically prepared to successfully defend yourself with a gun. Most people can drive a car pretty well, but that doesn't mean they would win at Daytona. That's a whole different ball game requiring skills, experience, and training which the average driver simple doesn't posses. It's funny how guns bring out our testosterone (me included), which is a poor replacement for combat skill and tactics.

I make a distinction between those who own guns and seldom (if ever) practice, and "shooters" who are in to the shooting sport. And you're right in that I don't have any "facts" to back up my claim, other then my own personal observations from years of competitive shooting. Almost to a man, every first time competitor did very poorly in their first IPSC or IDPA match. As expected, and because of their prior training, LEO's fared better than most. All I'm saying is that 98% (let's just say "a lot") of the people who own guns are not "shooters". And even if they are, being a "good shoot" certainly does not make one a "combat shooter".

I was a "good shoot" before I started shooting IPSC pistol matches, but I failed miserably at first. I had to learn a whole new set of shooting and tactical skills (drawing, quickly reloading, quickly clearing all manner of malfunctions, which bad guy to take out first, what to do if he doesn't go down, one hand shooting, weak hand shooting, the difference between cover and concealment, keeping track of the number of rounds you've fired, not shooting your gun "dry", shooting from inside a car, shooting through walls, shooting at moving targets, shooting at multiple targets, shooting in low light conditions, when to use the sights, when NOT to use the sights, shooting while moving, hostage situations, bystanders, understanding what a tactical advantage is, situational awareness, presence of mind, critical split second judgment, having a plan, etc.) There's a big difference between slow, deliberate, target shooting, and a life and death confrontation which is over in mere seconds. Once the decision is made to use deadly force, you need extremely fast and effective multiple hits using "combat accuracy", not pin point target accuracy. If you miss, you've lost your tactical advantage and you may start a gun fight, which is just what you don't want. You want to end the confrontation NOW without the bad guy firing any shots at all. There are a lot of dynamics (all that stuff in parentheses above and much more) at play here and the better one understands them, the better their chance for survival.

Some of us "shooters" have some friends who own guns but never (or seldom) shoot them. A good friend of mine bought a nice 45 auto for home defense. He bragged about how his 45 would stop anybody, just because "it's a 45". Now this guy is not a "shooter". He simply wanted a gun for home defense. At my coaxing and prodding, he finally agreed to shoot with me on my range. At 20 feet, I asked him to hit a pie plate 3 times in 5 seconds (and 5 seconds is pretty generous). He missed all 3 times! On his second attempt, he got 1 of out 3. On his 3rd attempt, he missed all 3 times again. I moved him up to 10 feet and he still missed most of the time. This is how most "non-shooter-gun-owners" would fare. They might get "lucky", or they might not. All I'm saying is that one can significantly increase their chances for a successful outcome by taking some training. Wouldn't you agree with that? Another way to learn some of this stuff is by competing in IDPA or IPSC matches. Heck, it's fun!

I just recently got my concealed carry permit. Now I'm not required to take any courses because of my military service, but I'm going to take some anyway. I'm a retired teacher and I guess I just believe that learning is a life-long process.

And to the original poster concerning pump vs auto, they'll both get the job done. It just boils down to personal preference. I prefer a pump. But again, it's not the tool that counts. It's how effectively you can use that tool under severe stress. I'll still advise some training. (And I'm sorry about high-jacking your post. My apologies.)

So Vikingdad, chill out. We can agree to disagree and I'll buy ya a virtual cup of coffee and we'll talk about the good old days.

Semper Fi

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Last edited by genesis; 10-06-2012 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:18 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by reloader97

I second this I think the average shooter could do a lot better then the 20% hit rates of LEOs.
Whoever annointed themself an authority on law enforcement accuracy rates of 20% should cut way back on the amount of Listerine they're adding to their coffee.

That number is inaccurate and insulting.
No, not every cop is a great shot but the majority of LEO's will out shoot most noncompetitive shooters.

Comments like that are simply ignorant.
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