[DocWard]

I had to sit back and think for a moment or two as to how to best answer the question. The more I thought, the more I come back to "It depends." The vast majority of my shotgun experience has been shooting ATA trap, with a fair amount of upland bird hunting tossed in.

When I was being taught to shoot trap a couple of decades back, I was taught that your mount and cheekweld were everything. I was told that assuming a properly fitting shotgun, I should see a specific sight picture, in the case of my BT-99, a sort of a figure 8 with the front bead over the rear bead. Whenever moving the shotgun, this sight picture should remain the same. From there, I was trained to "extend my vision" out past the trap house so that the bird would come into focus as it exited the house.

Now here is where the "it depends" comes in. When I visualize, on a straightaway or quartering angle, I tend to visualize what I would describe more as "aiming" the shotgun, being more conscious of where the sight picture is in relation to the target. On hard angle shots, while I am sort of conscious of the sight, there is more "instinctiveness" involved, for lack of a better word. All of the things that come into play with a moving target are multiplied. Moving past the target, not stopping the gun and short shooting it, following through, etc... So that I am more prone to say I am "pointing" the gun.

Having said all of that, I find that this applies particularly well to trap, where the targets tend to have a know flight path. In shooting pheasant or other birds, since the angles, flight paths, speeds and the like vary, I tend to be a bit more instinctive most of the time, although I obviously try to keep good mechanics and fundamental skills in place. Hence, I would say I tend to "point" more when hunting.

I don't know if this will make a bit of sense to anyone, but it is about the best way I can explain it.

[tonydewar]

shooting clays if you check your lead you miss eyes on the bird trust your brains and hands

[tonydewar]

Originally Posted by DocWard

I had to sit back and think for a moment or two as to how to best answer the question. The more I thought, the more I come back to "It depends." The vast majority of my shotgun experience has been shooting ATA trap, with a fair amount of upland bird hunting tossed in.

When I was being taught to shoot trap a couple of decades back, I was taught that your mount and cheekweld were everything. I was told that assuming a properly fitting shotgun, I should see a specific sight picture, in the case of my BT-99, a sort of a figure 8 with the front bead over the rear bead. Whenever moving the shotgun, this sight picture should remain the same. From there, I was trained to "extend my vision" out past the trap house so that the bird would come into focus as it exited the house.

Now here is where the "it depends" comes in. When I visualize, on a straightaway or quartering angle, I tend to visualize what I would describe more as "aiming" the shotgun, being more conscious of where the sight picture is in relation to the target. On hard angle shots, while I am sort of conscious of the sight, there is more "instinctiveness" involved, for lack of a better word. All of the things that come into play with a moving target are multiplied. Moving past the target, not stopping the gun and short shooting it, following through, etc... So that I am more prone to say I am "pointing" the gun.

Having said all of that, I find that this applies particularly well to trap, where the targets tend to have a know flight path. In shooting pheasant or other birds, since the angles, flight paths, speeds and the like vary, I tend to be a bit more instinctive most of the time, although I obviously try to keep good mechanics and fundamental skills in place. Hence, I would say I tend to "point" more when hunting.

I don't know if this will make a bit of sense to anyone, but it is about the best way I can explain it.

dont complicate it focus on the bird

[DocWard]

Originally Posted by tonydewar

dont complicate it focus on the bird

Trust me, NONE of that goes through my mind after I call for a bird. Prior to calling for a bird, I sort of go through a checklist. Proper mount. Cheek weld. Proper aiming point. Extend vision. Deep breath. Call for bird.

I think it was obvious that I was trying to visualize and elaborate for purposes of explanation. Hence my statement "When I visualize." My personal opinion is that if you can't articulate the process and the basic mechanics of what you are doing, you probably aren't doing them very consistently, and could be shooting better. I will add that simply advising to "focusing on the bird" without giving thought to the rest of the mechanics, proper mount and keeping a good cheek weld for instance, won't do much good. Many a shooter will focus on the bird as they draw their cheek away on a hard angle left. Others will focus on the bird on those angles and short shoot them because they didn't push through the bird. Still others will see a sliver of orange floating away from them and shoot under it because they lifted their head slightly.

No, don't over complicate things, but simplistic advice without attention to the entirety doesn't do a whole lot.

[diggsbakes]

"With a shotgun, you POINT AT YOUR TARGET."

The words of my Grandfather and Father that I can hear like it was yesterday. That's one of the fundamental lessons that really impacted my early experience and therefore growth with my shooting skills.

The idea behind it is that when engaging a moving target at fairly close distances there is simply no time to accurately "Aim" your weapon, besides, to me, in order to really "aim" a gun, you gotta have front and rear sights. How many shot guns come with rear sights? (No, I don't really know either!) My guess is not many. I know growing up, none of them had any. Just a brass bead on top of the rib and/or barrel and you're set.

[DocWard]

Originally Posted by diggsbakes

"With a shotgun, you POINT AT YOUR TARGET."

The words of my Grandfather and Father that I can hear like it was yesterday. That's one of the fundamental lessons that really impacted my early experience and therefore growth with my shooting skills.

The idea behind it is that when engaging a moving target at fairly close distances there is simply no time to accurately "Aim" your weapon, besides, to me, in order to really "aim" a gun, you gotta have front and rear sights. How many shot guns come with rear sights? (No, I don't really know either!) My guess is not many. I know growing up, none of them had any. Just a brass bead on top of the rib and/or barrel and you're set.

Read what I wrote previously and see if it makes any sense. I think we are generally talking the same thing. No, one doesn't have time to draw a "fine bead" or take close aim, particularly in shotgun hunting. Your mount should be the same each time, though, so your sight picture is the same each time.

I can get back to you on the front and rear sights, but I have a number of shotguns, and most of them have a front and rear bead, making for a front and rear sight for rough aiming. A couple of them even make provisions for adjustment. And yes, I am referring to my trap guns, not rifled or slug barrels, although I have that too.

[mykelb]

To me Pointing a Shotgun would be shooting from the hip and Aiming would be bringing it up to your shoulder and using the sights. (The usual disclaimer: My Opinion)

[diggsbakes]

Originally Posted by DocWard

Read what I wrote previously and see if it makes any sense. I think we are generally talking the same thing. No, one doesn't have time to draw a "fine bead" or take close aim, particularly in shotgun hunting. Your mount should be the same each time, though, so your sight picture is the same each time.

I can get back to you on the front and rear sights, but I have a number of shotguns, and most of them have a front and rear bead, making for a front and rear sight for rough aiming. A couple of them even make provisions for adjustment. And yes, I am referring to my trap guns, not rifled or slug barrels, although I have that too.

Sure, I don't do much hunting. With SGs it's all trap, skeet or sporting clays, with the exception of the HD SGs that get taken out on pistol days.

In reference to the front and rear alignment. . . I think you said it with "rough" aiming. I guess that is what I'd call pointing. If I have a gun in my hands I'm going to be trying to hit my target to the best of my ability. Shooting shotguns with proficiency, sometimes requires the sacrifice of exact precision (due to the size of the projectile) to gain speed in target aquisition/engagement.

[RMc]

I want my shotgun to fit so that when shouldered I am looking at a flat with a bead (vent rib single bead). I find such a "sight picture" allows an instant change of focus from front sight to target for a visual reference point.

With a properly fitting shotgun the bead and vent rib become the fastest "iron sight" system in existance. For this to work the pattern must center "under or just over" the "POA". I find this concept to work for me regardless of whether I'm using small .095" #7.5 shot or big .60" Dixie Tri-Ball buckshot on flying or running game respectively.

[DocWard]

Originally Posted by RMc

I want my shotgun to fit so that when shouldered I am looking at a flat with a bead (vent rib single bead). I find such a "sight picture" allows an instant change of focus from front sight to target for a visual reference point.

With a properly fitting shotgun the bead and vent rib become the fastest "iron sight" system in existance. For this to work the pattern must center "under or just over" the "POA". I find this concept to work for me regardless of whether I'm using small .095" #7.5 shot or big .60" Dixie Tri-Ball buckshot on flying or running game respectively.

You bring up a very good point. When I discuss things such as mount and cheek weld, I suppose I just assume that a proper fitting shotgun is a given. Something I really shouldn't do. I have a Winchester O/U that I only really shoot well with when it is cold out and I have a bunch of layers on, because it changes the fit enough for me to get a proper mount. One day I will look into getting it re-stocked or something of the sort. At this point in time, I don't shoot doubles often enough to make it worthwhile, and have other shotguns that fit as well as I can hope.