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Old 01-21-2013, 04:51 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axxe55

the 18" and 26" rule still apply and you have not changed the classification of the firearm.

why did Taurus and S & W classify the Judge and the Governor as pistols? simple because in their present configuration they would not be able to be sold to the general public as shotguns. but putting a rifled pistol barrel on them, and classifying them as pistols makes them legal to sell without classifying them as SBS.

i seriously doubt the manufacterers are going to provide illegal firearms for sale to the general public! when a firearm is sold it's termed on the 4473 as a pistol, rifle, shotgun or other. irregardless of what stock it has coming out the box, it's classified as a shotgun.

reread what you posted! when it's changed to be able to be fired one-handed! how many people will be firing a 26" long firearm with an 18" barrel one-handed?
They are not sold as illegal firearms! the CONVERSION makes it illegal! You're not converting it to a pistol it's classified as any other weapon. They gave the definitions of shotgun and pistol to clarify that a pistol grip shotgun could NOT be classified as either. How about YOU reread the WHOLE post before you start on me! I was just trying to answer a question from the OP to the best of my knowledge. I'm pretty sure I've done that. :-)
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:58 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Balota
Enlightening, but not entirely coherent. The law that you cited defines a "shotgun" and a "handgun". It even mentions the existence of guns that are neither and specifically says "A firearm with a pistol grip in lieu of the shoulder stock is not designed to be fired from the shoulder and, therefore, is not a shotgun."

But it does not go on to say that remaking a shotgun into a not-a-shotgun by replacing the stock with a pistol grip renders the firearm illegal. Is there a subsequent paragraph that does say that?
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-nfa-aow.html

Shows the definition of AOW. It's my understanding that when converting a shotgun to AOW it falls under the same guidelines as creating a SBR or SBS which require the tax stamp, engraving etc. it's late and I'm not going to finger through the NFA docs to find the specific legislation for the process but I will post more tomorrow.
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:00 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by GrthWhytHype View Post

They are not sold as illegal firearms! the CONVERSION makes it illegal! You're not converting it to a pistol it's classified as any other weapon. They gave the definitions of shotgun and pistol to clarify that a pistol grip shotgun could NOT be classified as either. How about YOU reread the WHOLE post before you start on me! I was just trying to answer a question from the OP to the best of my knowledge. I'm pretty sure I've done that. :-)
No you've gave them the liberals slant on the truth-the real truth is long as the gun is 26" over all it can have the shoulder stock replaced w a pistol grip. If the barrel has been cut down then you can't have it wo a shoulder stock somehow/shape or form. If the guns NOT been cut down you can put a pistol grip on it, if its been cut then it becomes illegal.

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Old 01-21-2013, 05:16 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by GrthWhytHype View Post
They are not sold as illegal firearms! the CONVERSION makes it illegal! You're not converting it to a pistol it's classified as any other weapon. They gave the definitions of shotgun and pistol to clarify that a pistol grip shotgun could NOT be classified as either. How about YOU reread the WHOLE post before you start on me! I was just trying to answer a question from the OP to the best of my knowledge. I'm pretty sure I've done that. :-)
then all these people are now in possession of illegal firearms? whether it has a pistol grip or a buttstock it's still classified as a shotgun as long as it meets the 26" OAL and 18" barrel specifications.

i did read it! the best of your knowledge confuses the issue! i have and so have a few LEO's i know have modified our shotguns in the past with pistol grips. they still complied with the 26" and 18" rules. they were still shotguns, not pistols.
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:19 AM   #35
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No you've gave them the liberals slant on the truth-the real truth is long as the gun is 26" over all it can have the shoulder stock replaced w a pistol grip. If the barrel has been cut down then you can't have it wo a shoulder stock somehow/shape or form. If the guns NOT been cut down you can put a pistol grip on it, if its been cut then it becomes illegal.
exactly! it still has to have at least an 18" barrel. my Winchester with a factory 18.5" barrel if i were to change to a pistol grip instead of the buttstock would measure at 30.5" OAL. so it would definately be legal.
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:20 AM   #36
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http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-nfa-aow.html

Shows the definition of AOW. It's my understanding that when converting a shotgun to AOW it falls under the same guidelines as creating a SBR or SBS which require the tax stamp, engraving etc. it's late and I'm not going to finger through the NFA docs to find the specific legislation for the process but I will post more tomorrow.
OK, from the link, here's the chapter and verse about AOW:
"National Firearms Act Definitions
Any Other Weapon

26 U.S.C. § 5845(E)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Any Other Weapon” means:

Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive;
A pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell;
Weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading; and
Any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.

Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."

I'm not a lawyer, I'm just an engineer. But I do read specs a lot. The not-a-shotgun in question is (a) not capable of being concealed on the person, (b) not a pistol or revolver, and (c) not less than 18 inches in length. I think that means the not-a-shotgun is also not a AOW.

I think you're saying that the act of converting the shotgun renders it illegal unless some Federal paperwork is also filed to register the modified firearm. That may be true, but not because of the references you've provided.

It doesn't seem reasonable that a modification that does not change the essential firepower of a weapon would be illegal. (Of course, nothing about gun control legislation seems reasonable to me, but that's another issue in another thread...) The change from buttstock to pistol grip does not increase the rate of fire, does not change the muzzle velocity, the type of projectile, etc. The modification in question should be no more controversial than painting it pink.
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:27 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Balota View Post
OK, from the link, here's the chapter and verse about AOW:
"National Firearms Act Definitions
Any Other Weapon

26 U.S.C. § 5845(E)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Any Other Weapon” means:

Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive;
A pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell;
Weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading; and
Any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.

Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."

I'm not a lawyer, I'm just an engineer. But I do read specs a lot. The not-a-shotgun in question is (a) not capable of being concealed on the person, (b) not a pistol or revolver, and (c) not less than 18 inches in length. I think that means the not-a-shotgun is also not a AOW.

I think you're saying that the act of converting the shotgun renders it illegal unless some Federal paperwork is also filed to register the modified firearm. That may be true, but not because of the references you've provided.

It doesn't seem reasonable that a modification that does not change the essential firepower of a weapon would be illegal. (Of course, nothing about gun control legislation seems reasonable to me, but that's another issue in another thread...) The change from buttstock to pistol grip does not increase the rate of fire, does not change the muzzle velocity, the type of projectile, etc. The modification in question should be no more controversial than painting it pink.
From the BATF's stand point its NOT anymore controversial than that if you:
A) don't go under 26" OAL
B) have less than a 18" bbl
C) make it fully auto
D) load it w "inhumane" ammo or ammo specifically banned like Dragons Breath/Nitro BB's
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:43 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balota
OK, from the link, here's the chapter and verse about AOW:
"National Firearms Act Definitions
Any Other Weapon

26 U.S.C. § 5845(E)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Any Other Weapon” means:

Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive;
A pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell;
Weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading; and
Any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.

Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."

I'm not a lawyer, I'm just an engineer. But I do read specs a lot. The not-a-shotgun in question is (a) not capable of being concealed on the person, (b) not a pistol or revolver, and (c) not less than 18 inches in length. I think that means the not-a-shotgun is also not a AOW.

I think you're saying that the act of converting the shotgun renders it illegal unless some Federal paperwork is also filed to register the modified firearm. That may be true, but not because of the references you've provided.

It doesn't seem reasonable that a modification that does not change the essential firepower of a weapon would be illegal. (Of course, nothing about gun control legislation seems reasonable to me, but that's another issue in another thread...) The change from buttstock to pistol grip does not increase the rate of fire, does not change the muzzle velocity, the type of projectile, etc. The modification in question should be no more controversial than painting it pink.
OMG thank you Balota. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Nowhere am I saying that I agree with the legislation. I understand that I haven't cited any of the laws on conversion only because I haven't found them yet. The NFA docs are almost 300 pages long! It's a bull**** law that was put into place to act as kind of a catch all for things that they didn't think of when NFA was enacted. There are lawsuits on record fighting these very laws. I'm only saying that technically you need to file some paperwork with BATF to comply with the crap. I know the weapons are made. I know people own them. I know that if OAL is 26 and barrel is 18 you're good. But the OP asked if it was illegal to make that conversion and I answered.
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:47 AM   #39
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OMG thank you Balota. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Nowhere am I saying that I agree with the legislation. I understand that I haven't cited any of the laws on conversion only because I haven't found them yet. The NFA docs are almost 300 pages long! It's a bull**** law that was put into place to act as kind of a catch all for things that they didn't think of when NFA was enacted. There are lawsuits on record fighting these very laws. I'm only saying that technically you need to file some paperwork with BATF to comply with the crap. I know the weapons are made. I know people own them. I know that if OAL is 26 and barrel is 18 you're good. But the OP asked if it was illegal to make that conversion and I answered.
Except it ISNT ILLEGAL!!!!! I'm a certified gunsmith that works on and sells guns to MANY states. I think id know what the hell I'm talking about. I deal w BATFE ass clowns bout once a month. Please do us all the favor of going back under your bridge....unless your afraid the hobo will kick you out again.
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Old 01-21-2013, 05:55 AM   #40
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OMG thank you Balota. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Nowhere am I saying that I agree with the legislation. I understand that I haven't cited any of the laws on conversion only because I haven't found them yet. The NFA docs are almost 300 pages long! It's a bull**** law that was put into place to act as kind of a catch all for things that they didn't think of when NFA was enacted. There are lawsuits on record fighting these very laws. I'm only saying that technically you need to file some paperwork with BATF to comply with the crap. I know the weapons are made. I know people own them. Iyou're good. know that if OAL is 26 and barrel is 18 But the OP asked if it was illegal to make that conversion and I answered.
and you provided incorrect information. simply changing a buttstock to a pistol grip isn't illegal as long as you maintain the 26" OAL and the 18" barrel length rule. it's still classified as a shotgun.
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