is it illegal? - Page 3
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Long Guns > General Shotgun Discussion > is it illegal?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-21-2013, 01:38 AM   #21
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jsimion423's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 84
Liked 10 Times on 8 Posts

Default

So your saying that since this only has a pistol grip it's illegal? That's funny since this is how it came straight out of the box.

image-3999146143.jpg  
__________________
jsimion423 is offline  
Mongo Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 01:45 AM   #22
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
HOSSFLY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lufkin,Tx
Posts: 6,932
Liked 2180 Times on 1471 Posts
Likes Given: 1191

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrthWhytHype View Post
I've never seen them so I can't comment on that. My assumption would be that they sell them as a pistol grip model and include the buttstock in the package because THAT type of conversion is not illegal. Again, all I've stated is converting a buttstock to a pistol grip is illegal under current NFA laws. Don't believe me? Call them yourselves. :-)
No thanks to the phone call to talk to a uninformed fool behind a desk
You show me a written law from a BATF site specificly saying its illegal & i'll bow to your superior knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrthWhytHype View Post
Also let me clarify, a pistol grip and a pistol grip stock are two different things. This info is based off of the idea of converting a stocked shotgun to a pistol grip. Converting a stock to a pistol grip stock is totally legal.
Uh- big ole duh ^^
__________________

Texan By Birth & Choice
USMC/VIET NAM VET

HOSSFLY is offline  
axxe55 Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 01:56 AM   #23
The Apocalypse Is Coming.....
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 28,735
Liked 21583 Times on 12248 Posts
Likes Given: 53672

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrthWhytHype View Post
I've never seen them so I can't comment on that. My assumption would be that they sell them as a pistol grip model and include the buttstock in the package because THAT type of conversion is not illegal. Again, all I've stated is converting a buttstock to a pistol grip is illegal under current NFA laws. Don't believe me? Call them yourselves. :-)
because it's classified as a shotgun. it's not a pistol. do you think in your infinite wisdom that the makers of these shotguns and parts are making them not compliant to current firearms law? that all these pistol gripped shotguns out there are illegal? and in your ifinite wisdom, how would anyone know whether it came with a pistol grip or a buttstock from the factory?

stop assuming. current firearms laws are not about assumptions. you can bet the firearms manufacterers are not assuming when it comes to legalities of making firearms.
__________________
Axxe55 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 01:59 AM   #24
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsimion423
Like this? I've since removed the chainsaw grip but they sell and make it.
Very nice!
__________________
Scarlett is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 03:27 AM   #25
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
GrtWhytHype's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 214
Liked 77 Times on 52 Posts
Likes Given: 19

Default

Alright everyone. Now I'm going to try and say this slowly. Converting a shotgun with a buttstock to a pistol grip is illegal. Now if you were to do it while also applying for the tax stamp to have it classified as AOW (any other weapon) you'd be fine. But why spend an extra $200 bucks when you can get one already manufactured for that same price. I'm not saying the ATF is going to kick in your door for it. I'm only stating that under current law it is illegal.

This is from a letter to FFL dealers in 2009.

Link here http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/ffl-newsletter-2009-11.pdf

For document in its entirety.

Firearms with pistol grips attached:
The definition of a shotgun under the GCA, 18 U.S.C.
§ 921(a)(5), is “a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosives to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. Under the GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)(A), handgun means “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.” Federal law provides under 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), that if the firearm to be transferred is “other than a rifle or shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older.
Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA even though they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example, firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock are not shotguns as defined by the GCA.
A firearm with a pistol grip in lieu of the shoulder stock is not designed to be fired from the shoulder and, therefore, is not a shotgun. Since it is a firearm “other than a rifle or shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older. Additionally, interstate controls apply. The licensee and transferee must be residents of the same State.

When you do any conversion to a firearm that changes it's CLASSIFICATION you need to go through the channels to have that firearm registered as a NFA item. If you do not you are currently in possession of an illegal firearm. These are all things that you learn when trying to make a SBR or SBS. (Short Barreled Rifle or Short Barreled Shotgun)

Now for the special kids...purchasing a weapon that already has a pistol grip is not illegal because you've done no modifications to change it's classification.

Now I'm pretty sure I've made my point with FACTS rather than playing armchair tough guy and backing up what I say with opinions. I hope this was enlightening to you. :-)

__________________

If you've got one foot in yesterday, and the other in tomorrow, than you're pissing on today.
-unknown-

GrtWhytHype is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 03:43 AM   #26
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: West, by God, Funroe,Louisiana
Posts: 18,707
Liked 9204 Times on 5058 Posts
Likes Given: 74

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsimion423 View Post
So your saying that since this only has a pistol grip it's illegal? That's funny since this is how it came straight out of the box.
Where did you get the one on the right? What caliber is that? I love it. Who's the maker?
__________________
trip286 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 03:45 AM   #27
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: The Edge of Darkness
Posts: 6,495
Liked 4790 Times on 2679 Posts
Likes Given: 1736

Default

Last month a group of Federal Agent in Utah were recieving training for shotguns. The Firearms Inst. ingaged a rapid fire target with a shotgun bearing a vertical forearm grip.
The grip broke off from the shotgun allowing his hand to go forward of the muzzle. He lost over 50% of his hand. He is contesting forced retirement.

__________________
nitestalker is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 03:54 AM   #28
The Apocalypse Is Coming.....
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 28,735
Liked 21583 Times on 12248 Posts
Likes Given: 53672

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrthWhytHype View Post
Alright everyone. Now I'm going to try and say this slowly. Converting a shotgun with a buttstock to a pistol grip is illegal. Now if you were to do it while also applying for the tax stamp to have it classified as AOW (any other weapon) you'd be fine. But why spend an extra $200 bucks when you can get one already manufactured for that same price. I'm not saying the ATF is going to kick in your door for it. I'm only stating that under current law it is illegal.

This is from a letter to FFL dealers in 2009.

Link here http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/ffl-newsletter-2009-11.pdf

For document in its entirety.

Firearms with pistol grips attached:
The definition of a shotgun under the GCA, 18 U.S.C.
§ 921(a)(5), is “a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosives to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. Under the GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)(A), handgun means “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.” Federal law provides under 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), that if the firearm to be transferred is “other than a rifle or shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older.
Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA even though they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example, firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock are not shotguns as defined by the GCA.
A firearm with a pistol grip in lieu of the shoulder stock is not designed to be fired from the shoulder and, therefore, is not a shotgun. Since it is a firearm “other than a rifle or shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older. Additionally, interstate controls apply. The licensee and transferee must be residents of the same State.

When you do any conversion to a firearm that changes it's CLASSIFICATION you need to go through the channels to have that firearm registered as a NFA item. If you do not you are currently in possession of an illegal firearm. These are all things that you learn when trying to make a SBR or SBS. (Short Barreled Rifle or Short Barreled Shotgun)

Now for the special kids...purchasing a weapon that already has a pistol grip is not illegal because you've done no modifications to change it's classification.

Now I'm pretty sure I've made my point with FACTS rather than playing armchair tough guy and backing up what I say with opinions. I hope this was enlightening to you. :-)
the 18" and 26" rule still apply and you have not changed the classification of the firearm.

why did Taurus and S & W classify the Judge and the Governor as pistols? simple because in their present configuration they would not be able to be sold to the general public as shotguns. but putting a rifled pistol barrel on them, and classifying them as pistols makes them legal to sell without classifying them as SBS.

i seriously doubt the manufacterers are going to provide illegal firearms for sale to the general public! when a firearm is sold it's termed on the 4473 as a pistol, rifle, shotgun or other. irregardless of what stock it has coming out the box, it's classified as a shotgun.

reread what you posted! when it's changed to be able to be fired one-handed! how many people will be firing a 26" long firearm with an 18" barrel one-handed?
__________________

Last edited by Axxe55; 01-21-2013 at 03:56 AM.
Axxe55 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 03:57 AM   #29
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 864
Liked 62 Times on 47 Posts
Likes Given: 37

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobski View Post
not illegal, but why?
shotguns are pointed, not aimed.
pg and vert grips are for steadying a shot.
waste of money on a shotgun.
Most shotguns are pointed, not aimed....................but some are aimed!
Do you think you could hit this good (red circle)at 50yds away without aiming?

__________________

If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.
George S. Patton

7.62 Man is offline  
eldarbeast Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2013, 04:48 AM   #30
Mommy, who lights the sun?
FTF_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Balota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Glenpool, Oklahoma
Posts: 2,947
Liked 1947 Times on 1184 Posts
Likes Given: 2121

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrthWhytHype View Post
Alright everyone. Now I'm going to try and say this slowly. Converting a shotgun with a buttstock to a pistol grip is illegal. Now if you were to do it while also applying for the tax stamp to have it classified as AOW (any other weapon) you'd be fine. But why spend an extra $200 bucks when you can get one already manufactured for that same price. I'm not saying the ATF is going to kick in your door for it. I'm only stating that under current law it is illegal.

This is from a letter to FFL dealers in 2009.

Link here http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/ffl-newsletter-2009-11.pdf

For document in its entirety.

Firearms with pistol grips attached:
The definition of a shotgun under the GCA, 18 U.S.C.
§ 921(a)(5), is “a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosives to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. Under the GCA, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)(A), handgun means “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.” Federal law provides under 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), that if the firearm to be transferred is “other than a rifle or shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older.
Certain commercially produced firearms do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA even though they utilize a shotgun shell for ammunition. For example, firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the buttstock are not shotguns as defined by the GCA.
A firearm with a pistol grip in lieu of the shoulder stock is not designed to be fired from the shoulder and, therefore, is not a shotgun. Since it is a firearm “other than a rifle or shotgun,” the purchaser must be 21 years of age or older. Additionally, interstate controls apply. The licensee and transferee must be residents of the same State.

When you do any conversion to a firearm that changes it's CLASSIFICATION you need to go through the channels to have that firearm registered as a NFA item. If you do not you are currently in possession of an illegal firearm. These are all things that you learn when trying to make a SBR or SBS. (Short Barreled Rifle or Short Barreled Shotgun)

Now for the special kids...purchasing a weapon that already has a pistol grip is not illegal because you've done no modifications to change it's classification.

Now I'm pretty sure I've made my point with FACTS rather than playing armchair tough guy and backing up what I say with opinions. I hope this was enlightening to you. :-)
Enlightening, but not entirely coherent. The law that you cited defines a "shotgun" and a "handgun". It even mentions the existence of guns that are neither and specifically says "A firearm with a pistol grip in lieu of the shoulder stock is not designed to be fired from the shoulder and, therefore, is not a shotgun."

But it does not go on to say that remaking a shotgun into a not-a-shotgun by replacing the stock with a pistol grip renders the firearm illegal. Is there a subsequent paragraph that does say that?

Edit: I read through the full article and found no such subsequent paragraph. But that was just a newsletter, not the entire law on the subject. Do you know whether there is a law about modifying shotguns?
__________________

Balota
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States
Practice does NOT make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

Check out 4th FTF Shoot & Hoot.http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f138/4th-ftf-shotgun-shoot-hoot-vanzant-mo-oct-4-5-2014-a-105142/


Last edited by Balota; 01-21-2013 at 05:01 AM.
Balota is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Is it illegal... Ryman123 The Club House 13 01-21-2012 05:03 AM
Is this illegal? NvRbanArms The Club House 63 01-20-2012 12:09 AM
Illegal immigration ScottA Politics, Religion and Controversy 114 12-08-2011 07:32 PM
I'm not sure this should be illegal. Jo da Plumbr The Club House 8 12-09-2009 06:01 PM