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Old 08-14-2011, 10:24 AM   #21
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i am curious about whose bedroom it was .

Dead guys and yes his wife was involved.
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Old 08-14-2011, 10:52 AM   #22
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Dead guys and yes his wife was involved.
we'll never know if his shot went low or high.
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Old 08-14-2011, 02:02 PM   #23
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we'll never know if his shot went low or high.
I'm betting on high; bird shot would be perfect for an angry castration.

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Damn Gello...when did you move to Mogadishu?
Let's just say i was really happy when i was told that leaving mags loaded wouldn't hurt the springs; though, i do load one round short. What i need now is a couple of those "flash bang" grenades, JIC.
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Old 08-14-2011, 02:25 PM   #24
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Alright, I'm done shooting for today, I fired about 23 rounds of 2-3/4'', 12-ga, 7-1/2'' bird shot rounds through my Mossy today. And yes, they have smaller shots than most bird shots, so I thought it would be a pretty decent example...

Anyway, I shot a bunch of 2 liter water bottles. They ripped right through them from about 35 feet away, and at about 15 feet away, it completely blew their tops off.

Yes, a buckshot will pretty much completely blow up water bottles, but the bird shot (even with 7-1/2'' bird shots) are not to be underestimated. For home defense, which is usually in between 10-20ft, I'd say they'd kill your intruder without too much of a problem. Especially because these were 7-1/2'' loads, not 2'' or 1''.

I conclude that bird shots are adequate home defense shots. Think about it. A 12-ga buck shot will completely obliterate your enemy for one thing, but it WILL go through them and it WILL destroy and go through your walls, so pretty much the entire general location you fire a buckshot in, it's going to get completely demolished.

For home defense, bird shots may almost be a requirement when your living in a generally tight suburban area, like where I live. Whoever says that bird shots will not be enough to take down your enemy, and that they could easily have enough energy to go to you and kill you... well... I think that's just BS. I actually tested it out with SMALL bird shots, I didn't just get some weird information that anyone could've made up on the internet... I saw it for myself today.

Thanks for the replies.
Good for you! Very happy you tested out your theory. You are now well prepared to defend yourself against a horde of angry water bottles meaning you harm. Now if you encounter a 300lb guy in your house wearing a heavy leather jacket you MIGHT have a problem. There is not ONE police, military or law enforcement agency in the WORLD using bird shot for Close Quarter Combat. WHY do you think that is? But that's Ok I guess we can just throw away all the LE and FBI studies on the subject as soon as your Youtube mythbusters type video is out...


In truth, within a very short distances a load of bird shot stays very close together so it acts like a single mass of lead BUT that property dissipates VERY quickly. I have seen tests that show that even 00 buck is not reliably effective past 15 yards, specially if any kind of barrier is present (heavy clothing, windshield, heavy drapes, walls, book shelves). Now not to many folks have living rooms that are 45+ feet long, but what about your driveway or back yard... Oh on this subject, the devastating effects your described of shooting someone with buckshot are very well documented, IN MOVIES. Buck shot has VERY poor penetration.

Bird shot is great! For birds... If you need self defense ammo you should buy shotgun shells that have been designed for self defense. And if your self defense is important to you stop taking ammo advice from the guy at the gun counter at WalMarts who probably gave you the logic that a $4.50 for 25 shells of Winchester trap loads is as good an investment in your safety as a box of Federal tactical 00 buck. Do some real research on the matter. And please do not defend your point in Youtube. There is plenty of bad gun advice posted by guys with no experience on the subject already available on that site.

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Old 08-14-2011, 03:08 PM   #25
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Old 08-14-2011, 03:29 PM   #26
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I do believe that at 20', .12 Ga. #8 birdshot could be quite lethal, however my primary home defense weapon is a short barrel, .12 ga, with extended magazine, loaded with high quality 00B. This gun can be reached from my bed.

I don't see loading birdshot for defensive purposes; if, God forbid, you ever have to shoot someone in your home, you want to be damn sure to disable them with one shot. I am sure that with solid shot placement, 00B will do just that. If a bad guy is in my home, while it is occupied, I have to believe he is willing to do me or my family serious bodily injury. I would not be inclined to attempt to mimimally disable him (or her). I would use the most leathal round available in the center of the body mass.
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Old 08-14-2011, 03:51 PM   #27
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Good for you! Very happy you tested out your theory. You are now well prepared to defend yourself against a horde of angry water bottles meaning you harm. Now if you encounter a 300lb guy in your house wearing a heavy leather jacket you MIGHT have a problem. There is not ONE police, military or law enforcement agency in the WORLD using bird shot for Close Quarter Combat. WHY do you think that is? But that's Ok I guess we can just throw away all the LE and FBI studies on the subject as soon as your Youtube mythbusters type video is out...


In truth, within a very short distances a load of bird shot stays very close together so it acts like a single mass of lead BUT that property dissipates VERY quickly. I have seen tests that show that even 00 buck is not reliably effective past 15 yards, specially if any kind of barrier is present (heavy clothing, windshield, heavy drapes, walls, book shelves). Now not to many folks have living rooms that are 45+ feet long, but what about your driveway or back yard... Oh on this subject, the devastating effects your described of shooting someone with buckshot are very well documented, IN MOVIES. Buck shot has VERY poor penetration.

Bird shot is great! For birds... If you need self defense ammo you should buy shotgun shells that have been designed for self defense. And if your self defense is important to you stop taking ammo advice from the guy at the gun counter at WalMarts who probably gave you the logic that a $4.50 for 25 shells of Winchester trap loads is as good an investment in your safety as a box of Federal tactical 00 buck. Do some real research on the matter. And please do not defend your point in Youtube. There is plenty of bad gun advice posted by guys with no experience on the subject already available on that site.
That harshness was unnecessary. There's really no reason to type your angry thoughts.

For one thing, I DID do real research on the matter, and everything tells me the same thing: buckshots will go through walls. I did not get this information from movies. Seriously, what's with all of these harsh assumptions? It's rude.

A 300 pound guy with a heavy leather jacket... yes, that'll be a problem. I didn't say bird shots are absolutely perfect defense shells that are better than buckshots. I didn't say that. Bird shots will not only hurt water bottles and birds, from a short distance, like let's say 10 feet, you may take someone down with it. NOT someone with a bullet proof vest and a ton of equipment to rob my house, but someone wearing average stuff. Stop making little extra, and, most likely, improbable points to prove my theory incorrect. You look very immature by doing so.

Besides, the bird shot will not most likely kill the person, but think about it, you'll have 250 hot lead pellets all jammed inside of you... don't you think that would... oh, I don't know... hurt a little bit? Your enemy is most likely going to tumble over in pain, not everyone is a determined soldier that will go through incredible amounts of pain to kill their enemy.

I'm not making a video proving my point... again... I didn't say that. I just made a video of shooting. A mindless shooting video. Happy? Good.

I didn't buy these 25 shells for home defense. AGAIN, I didn't say that. I bought them for target practice. But after realizing what they did at close range, I figured "hmm, you know, these things don't seem as weak as everyone makes them sound". I still don't think they're perfect, but I DID say that it MAY be adequate for home defense at close range.

If you don't change your attitude towards some people, then I think you really need some adjustment on that. Or maybe you just had a bad day. I don't know. Even if you thought that someone was extremely inexperienced with guns, why would you think that it would be smart to verbally attack them and call them stupid? It's immature.
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Old 08-14-2011, 04:20 PM   #28
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Shotguns usually aren't thought of as "One shot-One kill" in HD usage. If the first one doesn't slow or bring them down, you have at least 5 more to use and other places to aim, whether it be birdshot, buckshot or 00B.

Humans are really such fragile creatures and become very helpless quickly with the instant loss of ones eyesight and body parts.
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Old 08-14-2011, 04:44 PM   #29
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That harshness was unnecessary. There's really no reason to type your angry thoughts.

For one thing, I DID do real research on the matter, and everything tells me the same thing: buckshots will go through walls. I did not get this information from movies. Seriously, what's with all of these harsh assumptions? It's rude.

A 300 pound guy with a heavy leather jacket... yes, that'll be a problem. I didn't say bird shots are absolutely perfect defense shells that are better than buckshots. I didn't say that. Bird shots will not only hurt water bottles and birds, from a short distance, like let's say 10 feet, you may take someone down with it. NOT someone with a bullet proof vest and a ton of equipment to rob my house, but someone wearing average stuff. Stop making little extra, and, most likely, improbable points to prove my theory incorrect. You look very immature by doing so.

Besides, the bird shot will not most likely kill the person, but think about it, you'll have 250 hot lead pellets all jammed inside of you... don't you think that would... oh, I don't know... hurt a little bit? Your enemy is most likely going to tumble over in pain, not everyone is a determined soldier that will go through incredible amounts of pain to kill their enemy.

I'm not making a video proving my point... again... I didn't say that. I just made a video of shooting. A mindless shooting video. Happy? Good.

I didn't buy these 25 shells for home defense. AGAIN, I didn't say that. I bought them for target practice. But after realizing what they did at close range, I figured "hmm, you know, these things don't seem as weak as everyone makes them sound". I still don't think they're perfect, but I DID say that it MAY be adequate for home defense at close range.

If you don't change your attitude towards some people, then I think you really need some adjustment on that. Or maybe you just had a bad day. I don't know. Even if you thought that someone was extremely inexperienced with guns, why would you think that it would be smart to verbally attack them and call them stupid? It's immature.
I never used the word stupid in my post or attacked you for that matter. I was MAYBE a little sarcastic at best and that was just an attempt at humor. Maybe I should use more smilies for the sake of folks feelings...

I was being factual and maybe I am a little crabby that REALLY bad information like birdshot being a suitable self defense round, racking slides on pumps scaring BG, and all the other gun store counter Rambo nonsense keeps getting perpetuated on the INTERNET. People that don't know any better actually read this stuff on gun boards and go deliver it to other inexperienced folks as gospel while there is really good info out there from reputable sources that state otherwise.

Reality is that birdshot and even buckshot for that matter seriously limit your self defense options. As long as the guy is not wearing anything substantial, is overly large and is unprotected inside you average living room you'll be just fine. If he gets behind your couch or any other substantial furniture you are now potentially toast (did you try shooting through any of those from 20 feet away?). Why would you EVER limit yourself by picking an unsuitable load for self defense when suitable ammo is widely available!!!

I'm sorry if I came through a little too harsh but when folks hang their hide on the line with poor defensive choices and them tout them as perfectly good for poor reasons (shooting water bottles!!!) I don't care to let it go unchallenged. Don't need to convince but ONE person reading this thread to do the right thing to make it worthwhile. If that one person is you then all the better. If not then it's all good. I tried.
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Old 08-14-2011, 04:48 PM   #30
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Twisted4000, first off, since no one else has said it, welcome to the forum! Always glad to see a new member. Please don't take offense to any of the responses you get - some of us are more adamant in our responses than others.

Now, as for your question, the reason birdshot was originally invented was to have a wide pattern at medium range so that only a few pellets would pierce the relatively delicate flesh of a fowl and bring it down without damaging much of the meat. This is the exact opposite effect we are trying to achieve with a human, which is maximum organ trauma, large permanent stretch cavities to cause maximum bleeding, which of course is damaging massive amounts of "meat" - the opposite of what we wanted with the fowl, but best for our defense.

The problem with close range effects like water bottles and watermelons is that they are not effected like a human driven by a brain, protected by a skeleton and several layers of skin, clothes, leather and maybe others, and also doing its best to protect itself-all of which interfere with birdshot. It should be noted that when you fire multiple projectiles, they divide the force of the propellant (powder) between them. Each one hits with only a proportional percentage of the total force. This produces less penetration than a single projectile. The disadvantage is that there may not be sufficient force to penetrate adequately to penetrate vital organs. So visually, even at medium range, a hit on flesh looks devastating, but the actual trauma done may be so minimal that the BG can survive and still do you damage. With buckshot, the fewer pellets carry the lethality to a human farther because the force of the propellant is divided between fewer projectiles.

Also, every round that has lethality to humans has had its lethality extensively tested by the FBI, by Police agencies looking for alternatives, and by individuals looking for the next great breakthrough in home defense. The reason that this has not been written about extensively already is that birdshot was never found to be lethal enough to humans at more than 5-10' to be worth examining further. The whole reason to use a firearm is to keep danger from reaching within your 21' "Red Zone" that an attacker can cover in 1.5 seconds. Instead of birdshot in a shotgun, you would benefit far more with a centerfire handgun and a shorter barrel that was loaded with frangible ammunition to prevent overpenetration for home defense to both engage the BG at short range and also be able to be effective at longer ranges should it move outside.

Sorry for the length of the post but I felt the subject needed a bit of explanation! I hope it helps.
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