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Old 10-20-2009, 02:49 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by IGETEVEN View Post
Actually, any shotty load, #4 bird shot to .00 will do much damage, but I prefer the #4 bird shot in close quarters in a HD situation. 30 to 50 feet, aim high, upper chest, neck, head or aim low, stomach, groin and legs. It will detour, maim or kill. All will remove and penetrate tissue, penetrate eyes and cause organ damage, and breathing problems.

It really all boils down to the size of the mess you want to clean up afterwords.

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Old 10-20-2009, 04:56 PM   #12
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Please note that there is a major difference between #4 birdshot and #4 buckshot.

The latter is a credible defensive round; the former only works well if you're being attacked by waterfowl.
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:04 PM   #13
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The latter is a credible defensive round; the former only works well if you're being attacked by waterfowl.
Wrong.

Take it to the range, and test it. Then come on back and retract your statement. Does work well on waterfowl, too.
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:09 PM   #14
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Please note that there is a major difference between #4 birdshot and #4 buckshot.

The latter is a credible defensive round; the former only works well if you're being attacked by waterfowl.
We are talking home defense here right? You must live in a big ass house but for us normal folk at home defense ranges anything coming out of a 12g would make a mess.
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:23 PM   #15
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Wrong.

Take it to the range, and test it. Then come on back and retract your statement. Does work well on waterfowl, too.
I have over two decades in law enforcement. I have carried shotguns, trained regularly with shotguns and fired a shotgun in an actual deadly-force situation. I have also seen the results of their use against the human body numerous times. There is a major difference between putting a bunch of little holes in a piece of paper hanging up at your range and actually stopping a live person who is bent on doing you harm. I stand by what I wrote.
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:42 PM   #16
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I guess you are missing my point. #4 birdshot is a damn fine home defense load. Especially, if I don't want to shoot my son in the adjacent room.

Are you saying that it won't stop a man?
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:03 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by 1919A4 View Post
I have over two decades in law enforcement. I have carried shotguns, trained regularly with shotguns and fired a shotgun in an actual deadly-force situation. I have also seen the results of their use against the human body numerous times. There is a major difference between putting a bunch of little holes in a piece of paper hanging up at your range and actually stopping a live person who is bent on doing you harm. I stand by what I wrote.

With all due respect to you sir, especially a LEO, and not to get into a "who has the bigger set" contest, I too have fired a shotgun in actual deadly-force situations. I too have also seen the results of their use against the human body numerous times and at 20-25 feet with #4 bird shot or #4 buck shot, along with other larger loads, there is considerable tissue damage, tissue loss and trauma, especially to the face and neck and other soft tissue areas, and especially if you pump another round in that direction. That distance, no matter the choke setting.

Now, if you are implying to make the encounter short and sweet and just outright blow off a partial body part and pretty much kill with a one shot round, you are correct sir, bigger loads are better, but I thought one would want to stop or disable the lethal threat with the least amount of lethal force needed, while not endangering yourself, and especially others in the home, no?

It really all boils down to the size of the mess you want to clean up afterwords with load size.

Jack
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:28 PM   #18
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Please note that there is a major difference between #4 birdshot and #4 buckshot.

The latter is a credible defensive round; the former only works well if you're being attacked by waterfowl.
In a home invasion scenario at close range, those turkey loads that stakingbear mentioned would create meat splatter everywhere. Now, if you are talking about 30-40 yards, that is different. This is a home defense discussion.
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