You are Unregistered, please register to use all of the features of FirearmsTalk.com!    
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Long Guns > General Shotgun Discussion >

Gunfight Science: Do Shotguns Suck for Self-Defense?


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-21-2017, 09:15 PM   #191
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: The Free State of Winston, AL
Posts: 4,978
Liked 3634 Times on 2121 Posts
Likes Given: 2397

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfox75 View Post
Whenever I hear someone try to say that bird shot a close range won't kill, or stop an attacker, all i can think of is the usual HD loads i keep in my larger revolvers, and what I carry in the snubbies from time to time. Glasers.

The main difference between them and a load of #7 from a shotgun, aside from quantity, is that the full GSS enters the body, then breaks apart, and sends those small shot pellets all over the place inside the body, causing all kinds of injuries. These rounds do enough damage that very few people shot with them have survived, most of them shot in the @$$, or a similar area, where there was enough bone to stop the pellets from reaching somewhere vital.

6 shot load out is 2 to 3 gSS, and 3 to 4 JHP. 5 shot is one less JHP.

I think a load of #8 or 9 bird in the gut or CM, from less than 7 yards, would do similar damage, on top of the fact that said 12, 20, or 16 gauge's flash bang like roar and muzzle blast are highly likely to make the first invader, if not killed or picking up that he is no seriously injured, and in need of a trauma unit, likely rethink his decision to kick down that door that was locked for his protection, not the home owner's.

And it would make a very nice, legal in most cases, warning shot for any of his friends coming up behind him, and would do a good job of slowing their escape, should they be loyal enough to decide to carry him out to the ER.

that being said, I do care enough about my safety, and that of my loved ones, that a load of #$ bird or smaller is a Last Ditch effort. My HD shotguns are loaded with 00 buck, 000 buck, #1 buck, or #4 buck, chased by slugs, or Winchester PDX-1s.

unless I'm somehow caught in a bizzarro Alfred Hitchcock movie world, I don't ever see that being a need to load up primary situation.
You are right, but you are wrong. The ONLY time the small (bird) shot behaves as you describe is, as I said earlier, with a CONTACT SHOT!! Have any of you seen the x-ray from a contact and not contact shot with bird shot??? I have, many times. The contact shot x-rays were of 'bodies' in the morgue, and yes the shot went everywhere! The x-rays of the not contact shots were in the E.R, and they were ALL ambulatory!!!
__________________
An armed society is not always a polite society, but it is a free and safe society!
Self Defense is an absolute and natural right!
Keep your head down and your powder dry!
JimRau is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2017, 10:11 PM   #192
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
kfox75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Wrong side of the tracks, Erie PA,
Posts: 7,210
Liked 6992 Times on 3975 Posts
Likes Given: 33088

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRau View Post
You are right, but you are wrong. The ONLY time the small (bird) shot behaves as you describe is, as I said earlier, with a CONTACT SHOT!! Have any of you seen the x-ray from a contact and not contact shot with bird shot??? I have, many times. The contact shot x-rays were of 'bodies' in the morgue, and yes the shot went everywhere! The x-rays of the not contact shots were in the E.R, and they were ALL ambulatory!!!
jim. I was an EMT 1 in NY, who also worked in the local ER, so yes, I have seen a few of those wounds, as it was a smaller town, not a big city. I have also seen the x rays taken before stabilization, as I was one of the staff members who's job it was to forward them to the closest trauma center, up in buffalo NY.

However, contact and non-contact are clear cut in their difference, to a poiint. Within a certain distance, non-contact wounds can look very similar to a contact wound, due to the muzzle flash. generally, contact is going to come with more damage than a shot from an inch away, but close inspection of the wound it's self is needed to determine it.

I didn't see a lot of GSW in my time there, but I did see enough to tell if it was at a distance, or up close and personal.

to me, the distance at which Bird is an option is close enough to use the shotgun as a club, or stand off weapon. At THAT distance it would "Likely" cause enough damage to stop a threat (in Theory, but I don'y run on theory.)

If your attacker is THAT close, you have already made several mistakes IMO.

How the shot travels once it's past clothing, skin, and muscle depends on several factors, including shot placement.

Please note that I DO NOT say use anything less than Buck Shot for HD, unless there is NO other choice in the matter. If it is all you have, aim for the face. here's why I say that.

We had a guy come in one night, dropped out side the ER door in a buzz and dash type manner, who had a lot of little red spot leaking blood from his face, and some serious eye damage. It was an x-ray, stabilize, and ship to ECMC, STAT situation.

Later that night, LE came by and asked us if we had any GSW cases, so we gave them the file. they contacted the ECSD, and had them go up and place him under arrest, once he was out of surgery, to get transported back to the CCSD, to be placed in holding. turns out he had broken into a home, thinking no one was home, as there was no car there, and no lights on at 22:00 Hours, and got caught by the home owner, a 71 YO female, who didn't drive, and shot in the face, as he came towards her bedroom.

Yes, he did turn, run into a few walls, and his friends grabbed him, got him out, and hauled @$$ to the local ER, then dropped him there.

From what I heard, from a friend in LE there, off the record, after trial, the distance was about 19 to 22 feet. Where she put that shot is what made the difference. The shotgun, for anyone wondering, was a youth model M500, 20 ga, with a palin barrel cut down are re beaded, to 19 inches, that was set up for her by her husband before he passed. He was a retired LEO, who had worked for 25 years after that as a smith.

In that case, it worked, as the buddies heard the shot, found him, and hightailed it out of there, and the threat was stopped. (She also was not charged, but did have to switch to her pistol, here husband's Python, he also had on her permit, that he tuned, and used as his duty weapon until he retired. Turns out, I knew both of them, as they were regulars at place I worked at years before.)

One case does not create a pattern, which is why I don't use bird in my HD shotguns, except as practice rounds, followed by HD rounds for the last part of the session. GHiven a choice of relying on a "May" get it done, or a "Will" likely do the job, I'm going to choose will.

And from the gob;lin's injuries that night, i can say that, at 5 to 7 feet, chances are, it would have been fatal, as a chest or gut wound. His odds of survival if it had been that close, with a eye and nose area shot would have come down to luck, as that close, it is pretty much a low speed slug, and is still peeling the wasd cup off the shot load.

Ain't trying to p!$$ on your boots, and tell you it's raining Jim. just giving one case, the only one I say with that kind of range and bird shot, (Other 3 were slug and a single Buck case, and then 2 with riles, and 5 with a handgun over a 3 year period. All of which were in the Summer, during the tourist season, in the local summer hotspot, with the exception of the slug hits, which were in the first week od Deer season, 2 the first year, one the last.) As part of my class time I also went over autopsy reports while taking criminal justice classes, so I do fully agree that bird is not the word in that case, and along with what my dad and retired LEO grandfather told me, Slug, buck, or just give them what they want.

Chances are, bird shot at 20 to 30 feet is just going to p!ss the goblin off. That's how my grandfather put it. (He also told me you don't shoot to wound, you shoot to kill.) But, in the case above, while it didn't kill the guy, bird shot DID stop the threat.

I'm sure we both can agree it's better than a kind smile, good intentions, and an empty hand.
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Blood loss and organ failure do.

I may live in the North, but I still uphold the Southern Values I was raised with.

lifetime member. NAHC, NRA, And SCOPE NY

If it's a nice enough day to wash the bike, it's d@mn well also a nice enough day to be riding it instead.
kfox75 is offline  
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 02:06 AM   #193
Proud to be an American
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Pasquanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: S.Maine
Posts: 1,900
Liked 2104 Times on 923 Posts
Likes Given: 1122

Default

When I did birdhunt I never used that low brass WM #8 shot evryone keeps referencing, it was #6, #4 high brass full power loads, the intent was to kill them! So why in the world are we discussing the low brass/ low power economy, dirt cheap crap, as home/self defense ammo? Come on seriously? you're going to use #8 shot for home defense? Consider #4 high brass the absolute minimum, the closer you can get to 00 the better.
__________________
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
Pasquanel is offline  
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 08:18 AM   #194
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Dallas53's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Deep Central East Texas
Posts: 6,299
Liked 8174 Times on 4468 Posts
Likes Given: 13947

Default

i am not tryin to convince anyone that birdshot is optimum for self defense, but in some cases may be a viable option for what ever reasons.

for true dedicated home defense shotguns, i highly recommend and suggest using buckshot or slugs. the data behind both has been proven beyond a doubt that they perform very well for that type of scenario.

but to totally dismiss birdshot as not being effective, and even some trying to tell us it's not even lethal, even when used at very close ranges, to me is being dishonest, misleading fo the real facts, and possibly just spreading an old wives tale about birdshot.

i suggest before scoffing at birdshot, or dismissing it entirely, take a trip out to the range, or the backyard or wherever your favorite place is to fire off a few rounds and try it out for yourself on various materials at about 20 feet or less. then come back and give me your honest reactions to the results.
__________________
Gone Back To The Woods!
Dallas53 is offline  
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 12:03 PM   #195
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
gunman41mag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,285
Liked 5101 Times on 2573 Posts
Likes Given: 2538

Default

I have 00 Buck for self defense in my shotgun, but if i ran out of 00 Buck, i wouldn't hesitate to use #4 to stop the zombies
gunman41mag is offline  
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 01:28 PM   #196
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: The Free State of Winston, AL
Posts: 4,978
Liked 3634 Times on 2121 Posts
Likes Given: 2397

Default

Like I said folks, it is all about probability! Use your COMMON SENSE, if you have any, and you will see exactly what I am saying. The probability of you stopping an aggressive attacker with BIRD SHOT is substantially lower than the probability of you stopping that same attacker with BUCK SHOT! NUFF SAID!
__________________
An armed society is not always a polite society, but it is a free and safe society!
Self Defense is an absolute and natural right!
Keep your head down and your powder dry!
JimRau is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Rules for a Gunfight CA357 The Club House 12 07-10-2010 11:10 PM
FBI/Islam gunfight. I have no idea why this isn't all over the news... roosterjuicer Politics, Religion and Controversy 17 10-30-2009 02:05 AM
Ohio bar gunfight Last Crow The Club House 12 10-13-2009 04:51 AM
Drill Sergeant Joe B. Fricks Rules For A Gunfight AsmelEduardo Training & Safety 7 03-12-2009 02:54 AM
What does it take to walk away from a gunfight? dirtysouth The Club House 11 08-25-2008 06:01 AM