buckshot vs. slugs for home defense - Page 5
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Old 10-26-2013, 09:27 AM   #41
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Buckshot flattens out real easy. It wouldn't surprise me if buckshot wasn't flat after passing through two 1/2" pieces of drywall. I feel I am the most expendable person in my home. I would not shoot in the direction of my family members even if it meant getting shot myself. SD is no different than hunting, it's your duty to know what is behind your target.

Other members have pointed out that using birdshot of any kind puts you in a legal dilemma. You are not a police officer. Less than lethal loads are for detaining suspects. The only time a civilian has the right to use a firearm is to save his/her life or the lives of others living in the home. It's difficult to say I was scared of losing my life when you are shooting birdshot.

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Old 10-26-2013, 10:17 AM   #42
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Prepared response I would probably say the double ot Buck shot or 1s or 2s, well aimed shots are great with slugs but that is an unlikely scenario in a home invasion. In a pinch, just about any powder propelled projectile will put put heads down and thats often all you need to survive, create a break in the scenario and either get the hell out or at least seek some type of cover and concealment.

I agree Birdshot isnt the best for this use or the LEO's would have it in their guns but most Home invaders will exit just as fast as they entered if they hit armed resistance and or birdshot or rocksalt. The biggest thing is to seek any protective location for you as fast as possible and call for assistance.

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Old 10-26-2013, 11:01 AM   #43
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Quote:
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Prepared response I would probably say the double ot Buck shot or 1s or 2s, well aimed shots are great with slugs but that is an unlikely scenario in a home invasion. In a pinch, just about any powder propelled projectile will put put heads down and thats often all you need to survive, create a break in the scenario and either get the hell out or at least seek some type of cover and concealment.

I agree Birdshot isnt the best for this use or the LEO's would have it in their guns but most Home invaders will exit just as fast as they entered if they hit armed resistance and or birdshot or rocksalt. The biggest thing is to seek any protective location for you as fast as possible and call for assistance.
In a typical home with drywall where is this safe location? What about a determined attacker? He isn't going to run away from gunfire. I live in a rural area. It's a given that people have a weapon of some sort in their homes. Yet we still have home invasions. If someone is crazy enough to invade a home with high odds the occupants are armed, they are not going to run from gunfire. You need a lethal load that will stop the attacker immediately. It is illegal to use a gun unless you are in fear of losing your life. I don't care how you spin it, you are going to have a hard time convincing a jury you were in fear of your life when you use rock salt. The jury is going to see you as a vigilante and find you guilty as charged.
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Old 10-26-2013, 11:13 AM   #44
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In a typical home with drywall where is this safe location? What about a determined attacker? He isn't going to run away from gunfire. I live in a rural area. It's a given that people have a weapon of some sort in their homes. Yet we still have home invasions. If someone is crazy enough to invade a home with high odds the occupants are armed, they are not going to run from gunfire. You need a lethal load that will stop the attacker immediately. It is illegal to use a gun unless you are in fear of losing your life. I don't care how you spin it, you are going to have a hard time convincing a jury you were in fear of your life when you use rock salt. The jury is going to see you as a vigilante and find you guilty as charged.
If your rural, you know why we keep rocksalt loads in hand, critters, dogs and rustlers dont need death always, sometimes just a little bite in the ass is enough! Rocksalt to the face at less than 20' will stop almost any intruder I assure you, try it sometime, see how that goes for you! We dont have many home invasions in the boonies for lots of reasons, not the least of them is the fact that 90% of my neighbors have guns and know how to use them no matter what age they are.

I will add, my 190 year old house has plaster and lathe and very solid Hemlock plank walls that would stop a slug or a thug dead in its tracks, my doors arent cheap Luan and My wife and I know our house well, any invader likely doesnt. My Wife and I can lockdown in our basement and the only way your getting us out is with fire, the 18" thick rubble wall and 2" floors wont give up the fight and neither will I!
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:29 PM   #45
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I shot a bunch of Hornady TAP 00 reduced recoil a couple weeks ago. Loved this round, and it's what I'm going to keep in the 590.

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Old 10-26-2013, 12:46 PM   #46
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Buckshot flattens out real easy. It wouldn't surprise me if buckshot wasn't flat after passing through two 1/2" pieces of drywall. I feel I am the most expendable person in my home. I would not shoot in the direction of my family members even if it meant getting shot myself. SD is no different than hunting, it's your duty to know what is behind your target.

Other members have pointed out that using birdshot of any kind puts you in a legal dilemma. You are not a police officer. Less than lethal loads are for detaining suspects. The only time a civilian has the right to use a firearm is to save his/her life or the lives of others living in the home. It's difficult to say I was scared of losing my life when you are shooting birdshot.
have ever actually shot birdshot at close distances, like 30 feet or less? and i said feet, not yards. i have on different materials, like two sheets of drywall, 3/8" plywood, an old door and the quarter panel of an old Chrysler, using #4 birdshot. it penetrated every one of them at 30 feet or less. the pattern was about 12-14" at the main concentration of the shot, using a shotgun with an 18.5" barrel.

so would your opinion be that a person's main torso area is tougher than, the plywood? or the quarter panel of an old car? or an old door? and why 30 feet? because the at the longest distance within my home, 30 feet would be most extreme distance, and closer to 20 feet or less in most. so at 20-30 feet with the amount of penetration and damage done o vaious materials, i concluded and proved that there is no way, that #4 birdshot would be classed as less than lethal loads. at 20 or less even #8 birdshot to the face would probably be lethal.

another member who was a former LEO and i both did some of these informal tests last year, and both of us posted pictures of the tests. he used we used 30 feet as our longest distance, i used #4 birdshot and he used #6 IIRC, and both of us had similiar results as far as penetration and damage done at those distances.

now i use #4 birdshot for two reasons, because it has less recoil than buchshot or slugs, which allows my wife to be able to make more than one shot if needed, and i have taught her to always used a follow-up shot if needed, plus, we are more than likely to have an encounter using that shotgun on a four legged critter or snakes.

i will not argue the fact that buckshot is more effective than birdshot, because i already know that. my HD/SD shotgun carries five rounds of #4 in the tube with five rounds of OO buckshot in the buttstock carrier, if needed.

i will conclude this with saying it's very irresponsible of you to tell people that birdshot is less than lethal when used at very close ranges. it shows your lack of knowledge about firearms and shotgun shells and leads people to believe something that just isn't true. you might seriously consider learning and studying up on firearms and such before posting some of the nonsense as above.
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Old 10-26-2013, 01:02 PM   #47
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If your rural, you know why we keep rocksalt loads in hand, critters, dogs and rustlers dont need death always, sometimes just a little bite in the ass is enough! Rocksalt to the face at less than 20' will stop almost any intruder I assure you, try it sometime, see how that goes for you! We dont have many home invasions in the boonies for lots of reasons, not the least of them is the fact that 90% of my neighbors have guns and know how to use them no matter what age they are.

I will add, my 190 year old house has plaster and lathe and very solid Hemlock plank walls that would stop a slug or a thug dead in its tracks, my doors arent cheap Luan and My wife and I know our house well, any invader likely doesnt. My Wife and I can lockdown in our basement and the only way your getting us out is with fire, the 18" thick rubble wall and 2" floors wont give up the fight and neither will I!
I dunno of I'd count on lathe and plaster with hemlock planks, to stop a slug. I watched a show on defensive shotgun and they tested slugs through some serious materials and found them to be extremely deadly through many common objects. Travelling through a fridge in one test and both sides of a car (in one door, out the other) and it was a still at deadly velocities. Next time I do some demo work on an onld house (which is quite often as its part of my job) I'm going to save some lathe and plaster to make a mock wall. I'll test out that theory as I'd like to see for myself.
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Old 10-26-2013, 01:22 PM   #48
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I use #4 buck and keep 00 on the sidesaddle and 4 slugs in the speedfeed stock. Sounds and is over complicated but my 18" 500 is more likely used on critters than crooks. Have shot a fair amount of different sized birdshot at different targets and left it behind because of the inconsistent results. I'm thinking the one time anyone counted on birdshot to be "less lethal" you would probably kill them graveyard dead with the first round.

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Old 10-26-2013, 02:41 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by WebleyFosbery38 View Post
If your rural, you know why we keep rocksalt loads in hand, critters, dogs and rustlers dont need death always, sometimes just a little bite in the ass is enough! Rocksalt to the face at less than 20' will stop almost any intruder I assure you, try it sometime, see how that goes for you! We dont have many home invasions in the boonies for lots of reasons, not the least of them is the fact that 90% of my neighbors have guns and know how to use them no matter what age they are.

I will add, my 190 year old house has plaster and lathe and very solid Hemlock plank walls that would stop a slug or a thug dead in its tracks, my doors arent cheap Luan and My wife and I know our house well, any invader likely doesnt. My Wife and I can lockdown in our basement and the only way your getting us out is with fire, the 18" thick rubble wall and 2" floors wont give up the fight and neither will I!
I cab tell you have never loaded a shotshell with rocksalt. It's not like loading birdshot. You have to use a dowel to tamp the rocksalt in order to maintain enough wad pressure for the shell to go bang. Only a few chunks of rock salt survive the tamping. Then the rock salt doesn't have much range. I have pellet rifle for non lethal but rocksalt is an urban myth. You can't say I don't have the proper equipment to load rock salt. I have a nice Lee progressive shotshell press.
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Old 10-26-2013, 03:44 PM   #50
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OK...I'll play too :-)

I like the hornady varmint express #4 buckshot in the 2 3/4" variety. It uses their tight was technology (?) And even out of open cylinder SGs, it patterns very nicely. I think it has plenty of weight to get good penetration at the longest distances in my home and I'm confident I can hit what I'm aiming at with it. With that said, I have been testing several different kinds of shotgun loads for shooting coyotes, so maybe my brain is fixed on small animals and not human targets. If anyone has anything to say that may make me want to change my mind and do some different testing I'm all ears!

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