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Buckshot for home defense


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Old 03-28-2014, 03:12 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
Can you explain how a narrow hallway prevents one from using a shotgun? Using a shotgun indoors has to be easier than using a shotgun chest deep in briers.
Couldn't you explain some the techniques involved?
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:35 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel_Talon View Post
Couldn't you explain some the techniques involved?
What is there to explain? You keep the butt of the gun tucked under your arm and the muzzle pointed forwards. When you encounter the target you raise the gun, aim and shoot.

I am not going to write a book to explain the finer points of getting through the woods with a long gun.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:35 PM   #43
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i have shot a gun indoors in a old farm house a buddy was tearing down,we shot handguns and shotguns and rifles,both at night and day also with and without hearing protection.
i have a couple friends that have done the thunder ranch thing and that will give you a little indoor training, i did mine the poor man way but it gave me alot of insight on what to expect in the dark and with the ears ringing.
im not sure everyone is totally ready for the flash and the ringing ears it is just nice to know what to expect.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:44 PM   #44
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CCI .22LR "Stinger" lists muzzle energy as 191 ft/lbs for a 32 grain projectile (not sure what length barrel they're using, but probably 16" or 20").

US 5.56MM M193 ball (FMJ) has a muzzle energy of about 1200 ft/lbs for a 55 grain projective from a 16" barrel.

Buffalo Bore .44 Magnum has a muzzle energy of about 1200 ft/lbs for a 240 grain projectile from a 7.5" barrel revolver.

The similarity between .22 LR and 5.56MM M193 ball ammunition starts and stops with the diameter of the projectile, which is about the same.
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:48 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
What is there to explain? You keep the butt of the gun tucked under your arm and the muzzle pointed forwards. When you encounter the target you raise the gun, aim and shoot.

I am not going to write a book to explain the finer points of getting through the woods with a long gun.
Sorry brother wasn't looking for a book. I was just interested in your thoughts on getting through a building ,hallway etc. with the shotgun.

I was hoping more for things like High mount , Low mount, Eye Muzzle Target that sort of thing.

There's so much more to the shotgun than a field carry bird gun...
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Old 03-28-2014, 03:59 PM   #46
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This is another branch of mythos that needs busted.

The 5.56x45 is dead nuts manstopper in civilian ar15's out to 300 yards. EVEN with fmj. Any projectile of 55grains or heavier moving at 3000+ fps is a devastating shot when hitting center mass. Incidents of enemy combatants "getting" up are just as common when it happened with enemy soldiers of nippon getting back up and charging when hit with 30-06 from the m1 garand.

When the military switchd from a 20" barrel to 14.5 they lost that power factor at 250 yards of being a manstopper. That's where most of this myth comrs from as its based in mild fact of military arms not commonly available to civilians.

One of the reasons that police shifted from 9mm subguns like the hk mp5 and others to the ar15 is the rather poor ability of typical 5.56 to penetrate objects like walls.

The 5.56 does not need to hit at an angle to be devastating. There are two things that give rifles power. Either weight like in 45-70 or speed as is found in a 5.56. Rounds like 308/30-06/30-30 combine weight and speed.

The ar15 is a great gun for close up home defense.
So we should throw our shotguns away and get an AR15? I think I will pass on that one. I have seen enough deer shot with an AR15 to know better. Quite often the exit wound looks like someone shot the deer with a nail gun. The results I am talking about are from expanding ammo, not a FMJ.

This discussion is a huge contradiction. If we were talking about a pistol everyone would be saying that bullet size is everything. That .10 larger hole in the goblin is the difference between life and death. If you choose a FMJ bullet the goblin won't even feel it.

The fact of the matter is it really doesn't matter if you choose a shotgun or a rifle if you hit the bad guy in the body he is likely to go down. If you hit the goblin at center mass with a shotgun loaded with #00 buck he is going down.

The reason I have the 9mm carbine for my wife is she loves the gun. We have covered this one too. If a woman likes a gun with adequate stopping power don't mess with it. The only result you will get by forcing her into another gun is she will stop practicing.
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:10 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel_Talon View Post
Sorry brother wasn't looking for a book. I was just interested in your thoughts on getting through a building ,hallway etc. with the shotgun.

I was hoping more for things like High mount , Low mount, Eye Muzzle Target that sort of thing.

There's so much more to the shotgun than a field carry bird gun...
No, you are putting a lot more into it. I am not a member of a swat team entering a strange house. I know where the goblin is located in my home, even if I haven't seen him yet. All I have to do is wait for the goblin to come to me. I am under no obligation to rush into a confrontation. Home defense is surviving the encounter with all my body parts intact, not a video game or something you read in a book.
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:39 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Deer View Post
So we should throw our shotguns away and get an AR15? I think I will pass on that one. I have seen enough deer shot with an AR15 to know better. Quite often the exit wound looks like someone shot the deer with a nail gun. The results I am talking about are from expanding ammo, not a FMJ.

This discussion is a huge contradiction. If we were talking about a pistol everyone would be saying that bullet size is everything. That .10 larger hole in the goblin is the difference between life and death. If you choose a FMJ bullet the goblin won't even feel it.

The fact of the matter is it really doesn't matter if you choose a shotgun or a rifle if you hit the bad guy in the body he is likely to go down. If you hit the goblin at center mass with a shotgun loaded with #00 buck he is going down.

The reason I have the 9mm carbine for my wife is she loves the gun. We have covered this one too. If a woman likes a gun with adequate stopping power don't mess with it. The only result you will get by forcing her into another gun is she will stop practicing.
Nope, keep your shotgun. A shotgun is a very versatile and useful tool to have.

Keep the 9MM carbine, too. That said, see if she likes a 5.56MM carbine. If not, no problem. A 9MM carbine is far better than harsh words.

However, understand that like everything else, shotguns and pistol caliber carbines have their limitations.

With respect to pistol bullets, shot placement is everything. Anything 9MM or larger will generally do the trick and smaller diameter cartridges will work, too, with enough velocity.

Pistol cartridges common to defense use weapons generally lack the velocity to produce the kind of penetration that rifle bullets do, which is why I suggested using a 5.56MM carbine. Look at some pictures of what 9MM, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP do to ballistic gelatin. Granted, ballistic gelatin is not an analogue to flesh and bone, but it's as close as we can get. There's very, very little difference between the three. The .357 Magnum and 10MM penetrate a bit deeper.

Any base heavy projectile will tumble if it strikes something 1000 times denser than air because it lacks the gyroscopic stability required to maintain nose forward motion. The rate of spin required to maintain stability would overcome the structural integrity of jacketed lead.

In short, there's nothing magical about a shotgun and it has some severe capacity limitations and substantial recoil.

Firing one round with a shotgun is not equivalent to firing ten rounds of 5.56MM, with respect to practice. If you fire an equivalent number of rounds of the same type of ammunition you'd use in a carbine for self/home defense, then that's fine. Most people won't.

For me, 5.56MM is option 1. If that's not available or accessible for whatever reason, the 12 gauge is option 2. The 9MM pistol is option 3.
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Old 03-28-2014, 07:41 PM   #49
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One other general shotgun HD point I would like to make: If I do have to shoot a goblin of the non-bear persuasion for invading my home, and if I do have to deal with the local constabulary over the situation, I would MUCH rather say that I shot him with my 1970's era Mossberg 500 pump 12 gauge shotgun than something the local constabulary most regularly sees at their "quarterly tactical training barbeque". I want to be able to say that I was startled, afraid, desperate, and reached out for the firearm I keep at hand in case of bear attack/invasion.

Down here, several somebody's on any jury I face will own a Mossberg 500 pump action shotgun (possibly in case of bear attack/invasion), whereas a lesser number will own, love, or even truly understand an AR-15 rifle as a HD device. I will have to blame advancing age for the brevity of my barrel (18.5").

Beating the bad guy is a primary concern, but beating possible charges is a STRONG secondary concern. "hunting gun, old, like the one in your house, loaded with rounds with a game animal in the name, loveable, in case of bear attack/invasion..."
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Old 03-28-2014, 09:16 PM   #50
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Here is why I use # 4 bird shot...............

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