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Gonzilla 08-19-2013 09:01 PM

Best Sporting Clays Gun:
This is a platform that must be able to excel on skeet, trap or sporting clays fields. I have been using a Baretta 391 gas gun w 28" barrel and Rhino ported choke. 2"

I was at the range and several shooters had decked out Baretta 391 Tekmeys w weights in stock and cap - very soft shooting but they chose to use their O/U Blazers or 682 Baretta's. When I asked why, they said O/U swing smoother. The gas guns were too snappy even w mag extensions filled w springs or mercury. My longer tube is an attempt to duplicate that smooth swing.

So I decided to start a thread and get some more opinions on the subject.

Note: In the 1950s - ideal barrel for skeet was 26" and now it's 28 to 32" for more all around work n smoother swings.

indy36 08-19-2013 10:20 PM

Personally, I shoot skeet with a Browning Citori. It's the best gun for the money (my opinion). Most of the serious old guys at my skeet club shoot Kolar O/U guns.

indy36 08-20-2013 01:52 AM

In an effort to bestow better advice, here are some guns from the August 2013 issue of "Sporting Clays" magazine. Let's see what people are shooting in that game, right now...

* Blaser F3 Super Sport
* Fabarm Velocity LR
* Browning 725 Sporting Citori
* Beretta DT11
* Beretta A400 Sporting
* Benelli SuperSport
* Caesar Guerini Elipse EVO Sporter
* Winchester Super X 3 Sporting
* Krieghoff K-80 Paracours
* Krieghoff K-80 Pro Sporter

That's a mix of gas guns and over/unders.

Let's examine trap guns...

Here's are quotes from "The Gun Digest Book of Skeet & Trap Shooting"...

"Today's trap shooters need a gun that will place the shot charge above the actual point of hold, to compensate for the sharp climb of the target. If the gun shoots flat, as we would want for a skeet, sporting clays, or hunting gun, then the shooter must actually cover the target with the muzzle of the gun, swinging right up through the target and blocking it out. Since that causes the shooter to lose sight of the target at the critical moment he triggers the shot, it becomes a factor that will decrease a shooter's score."

"Trap favors tighter chokes than those pursuing skeet and sporting clays"

"A trap shooter won't move the gun more than about two feet from his starting position. That movement must be quick and forceful, and must drive right through the target. That driving motion has proven to be best accomplished with a longer, heavier gun that tends to stay moving once started. The most effective trap guns are those with barrels in excess of 30 inches and with a weight of 8 1/2 to 9 1/2 pounds."

"The ardent trap shooter ends up with a gun that has a very limited application for any other shooting game. Long, heavy, and tightly choked, the trap gun is a specialized tool for a specialized game. If you want to win this game, you will need one."

Let's examine skeet guns...

"The longest shot you'll see on a skeet field is 27 yards. The closest will be less than 4 yards, and most will range from 4 to 20 yards. Given the nature and range of targets, a light, fast-handling smoothbore with a wide open choke was a distinct asset. A 12 gauge with a skeet choke will place the entire shot charge within a 30-inch circle at 25 yards. Today, skeet is shot from a pre-mounted gun, which removes the requirement for serious gun handling ability, and the radiused buttpads commonly found on sporting clay guns. The practice has also encouraged the use of longer barrels, with more muzzle weight, that will promote a smother swing. The shift to longer barrels from 26 inches to 28 inches and now 30 to 32 inches is the direct result of knowledge gained on the sporting clays fields."

So, when shooting from a 'low gun' position stopped in skeet and everything became pre-mounted, the 26 inch 'fast handling' guns fell out of favor. Also, a skeet gun has a lot more in common with a sporting clays gun than it does trap.

Now let's look at sporting clays guns...

"First concern is to get the gun mounted quickly to your shoulder, since all sporting clays shots begin with the gun butt clearly visible below the armpit. That means a recoil pad with no sharp edges or deep serrations dragging on your clothing. A radiused butt pad is a must and a properly fitted buttstock to your individual build is key. Most sporting clays shooters want a flat shooting gun with its pattern impacting equally above and below the bead. Stack-barrel shooters opt for barrels in the 28 to 32 inch range. Those that favor semi-autos or pumps find the 28-inch barrel more effective than 26-inches. Today's crop of sporting clays guns have lengthened forcing cones, back-bored barrels, and long extended chokes, given the need for frequent choke changes without a wrench."

Here are some older sporting clays guns featured in the book, which might be good buys now since the book was put out years ago:

* Ruger Sporting Clays model
* Weatherby Orion Grade II Sporting
* Perrazi MX7
* Perrazi Sporting Classic
* Perrazi MX8
* Winchester 1001 Sporting Clays
* Winchester Model 1400
* Browning 325 Sporting Clays
* Browning Gold Semi-Auto
* Browning Gran Lightning Citori
* Beretta 686 Silver Perdiz Sporting
* Beretta A390 Super Sporting
* Remington Peerless
* Remington Model 11-87 Premiere Sporting
* Kreighoff K-80 Sporting Clays

Gonzilla 08-20-2013 03:26 AM

I have shot a Browning Citori hunting model before and the recoil n cheek slap were bit much for skeet shooting. Today, I got to shoot a Citori XS skeet gun in 12 ga and it was a completely different gun. (recoil wise) The Recoil was significantly less than the field variety and this was a stock gun. ( no weight fore or aft had been added)

I wonder how much back boring, and lengthened forcing cones help reduce recoil and promote better patterns ?

Virginian 08-20-2013 10:41 AM

It is all purely personal opinion. I hate O/Us, but I freely admit they are more fashionable these days. And everybody gets influenced by what this or that "expert" shoots, and says. I know of one excellent Sporting shooter who uses a Wingmaster pump, but that doesn't mean i want to.
Lengthened forcing cones do have an effect on the recoil pulse curve, although with target load I would think it would be slight. That and overboring and the right choke can produce tighter ultimate long range patterns, but for targets I think you can get whatever effect you are seeking just changing chokes.
I must be strange. I am perfectly happy with my guns. I know when I miss it was me, and not the gun, and I am not in pursuit of any guns or gadgets thinking they will make me a better shot.

Gonzilla 08-20-2013 09:27 PM


Originally Posted by Virginian (Post 1340879)
It is all purely personal opinion.
I must be strange. I am perfectly happy with my guns. I know when I miss it was me, and not the gun, and I am not in pursuit of any guns or gadgets thinking they will make me a better shot.

You are not "strange," you are simply ahead of the power curve. If I could bottle that contentment, it would be worth millions - perhaps billions cause it would put a lot of marketing depts out of business.

Getting a gun to "fit" is part art, part science. How does one quantify gun "feel" or the smoothness of the swing ?

I have to admit to a bit of O/U envy. If for no other reason than I'm tired of picking up shells. ;). I'm on the hunt for a bargain but unfortunately, these competition grade guns seem to hold their value.

My father shoots an 11-87 20 ga. It doesn't fit well. Should I get a Morgan recoil pad or have a adj comb installed ?

Virginian 08-20-2013 11:18 PM

What do you mean by "doesn't fit well" ?

John_Deer 08-21-2013 02:30 AM

Visiting a gunsmith and shooting a target with a trial gun will be a start to finding what fits you. Most guns fit me as far as mounting the gun. I want a gun to be on target with very little adjustment. You have a very nice gun now. I wouldn't listen to what other people say is the best gun. In their opinion the best gun is the one in their hand. They bought it because the thought it was the best gun. Don't be afraid to ask people to shoot a round of skeet with their gun. Most people that want you around will let you try their gun.

indy36 08-21-2013 02:38 AM

More from the book, semi-autos vs. O/Us:

"Balance and Handling: This is one area where over/unders have a perceived advantage. The twin barrels poking out past the forend give more forward weight than the single barrel on a gas gun, promoting a smoother swing, and one that is more difficult to stop once started. As a result, the targets are hit more often."

"The Case Against Pumps: To excel in sporting clays a shooter needs a gun that will reliably fire two shots while allowing total concentration on the target. Pumps require the shooter to manually chamber the second round. Even the best scattergunners will find they score a couple of targets less per round with a pump."

"The One Choke Syndrome: If you shoot a gas gun you only have one choke available. If you shoot an O/U you have the choice of 2. This is often touted as a major advantage of the stack barrel. There is some truth in that but not as much as many might suppose. Sporting clays is a game where the ability to use different chokes is often cited as a reason for the twin barreled gun's popularity in that game, but it is rare to find a station where the shots vary more than 10 yards in range difference. Once you know the range you can generally find one choke that will do. How does a shooter make one choke do the work of two? Easy. By changing shells. No need to change chokes when you can vary the pattern performance of your gun by simply changing your shells. The usefulness of spreader loads is the reason I feel a gas gun shooter is not at a disadvantage because the gun offers only one choke."

"Reliability: The over/under wins here. Period. No argument. Because of the large number of moving parts and mechanical operations required, a gas gun will never be as reliable as a fixed breech O/U. That is the biggest single reason why top competitors show a marked preference for the stack barrel guns."

"Ease of Maintenance: Cleaning an over/under is simplicity in itself. Gas guns are more tedious."

"Ease of Repair: Gas guns win this one. When O/U need repair they are more complex and I find it best to send them back to the factory. On the plus side, O/Us seldom require minor repairs."

"Use of Reloads: The stack barrel wins this one, hands down. If you can stuff the shell in the O/U and close the action, the primer will be struck when the trigger is pulled. If the shell is any good it'll go off. Not so with gas guns. They can be working perfectly and still screw up. The gas gun requires near-perfect ammunition. The power level of the shell must be sufficient to operate the action, yet not so powerful that it generates too much gas energy. That can cycle the action too fast and result in a failure to feed a second shell. If you reload, you must make certain that every shell is as perfect as a factory load. A hull that is worn, slightly out of round, or has a poor crimp may fail to feed and fire. Yet, it will run just fine in an O/U. Since most serious competitive shooters are reloaders, this has become one of the strong points in the O/U's favor. Also, the O/U doesn't toss empties all over the ground. You just pluck them from the chamber and put them in your pocket. This can be especially important if you are shooting on a range where the policy is that if a shell hits the ground it becomes the property of the range."

"Cost: O/U guns cost more. This is the biggest reason shooters choose a gas gun. In order to find an O/U with the quality needed you're looking at a price of $1,100 to $1,500. Ignore budget over/unders. If you are going to be serious the total difference in price of $400 to $600 may not be worth the increased inconvenience of the gas gun. Over/unders hold their value much better. If you decide you want to change guns you'll get a larger percentage of your original purchase price back if the gun you are selling is a well made O/U."

"Forcing Cones, Back Boring, and Barrel Porting: All these are subtle modifications said by their proponents to reduce shot distortion, reduce felt recoil, and decrease barrel jump when the first shot is fired. Whether these really make a perceptible difference is questionable. They certainly are profitable for the manufacturers and aftermarket gunsmiths. Porting makes the gun harder to clean and much noisier. I suspect that much of the perceived advantage of such features is the owner believing he or she has the best that money can buy. Every magazine includes multiple ads for a wide variety of recoil reducers. Like barrel porting, I question their usefulness. Published data indicates that the effects of recoil reducers are little different from the effects of adding weight to the gun in some way."

Gonzilla 08-21-2013 04:59 AM

Indy : Good information. What I find interesting is the gentlemen I was shooting with could afford any shotgun they wanted. They had shot quite a variety of guns, gauges & actions. Yet, they both chose an O/U as their primary gun. (both had full tube sets)

Not sure but I think both of them might have had gas guns in their inventories as well. They advised me to shoot as many different guns as possible before buying anything. Good advice.:D

Note: My Baretta 391 actually hmmmed between shots. I sent it back to Baretta; they couldn't stop it. Harmonic resonance caused by the hardening of the barrels. I told them I bought a shotgun and not a musical instrument to no avail.

I sent the gun to Rhino of Florida, a Baretta specialist to lengthen forcing cone, port barrel and stop the music. No luck but they did sell me a long tube that went under the barrel to help me swing through tgts.

Went back to Baretta for my millionth call and finally got someone knowledgeable who also had the same problem. He told me the solution was to send it to Mr. Jack West and have a soft comb installed. The noise went away and has never returned.

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