Any pistol grip pump actions with slam fire capability? - Page 5
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:16 AM   #41
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I told ya, the 590 SP does it. Hell, the .22 Mag pump-carbine in my trunk does it -- built that way!

PS: not an "inertia" thing at all...

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Old 02-24-2013, 04:44 PM   #42
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None of the responses advocated what the OP was asking for. None. Well, maybe one or two sarcastic responses. Did you even read through them before getting all uppity?
Vikingdad, I did read through all the responses and while most of them were against the theory (unproven by evidence) that you should hand a large, heavy, high-recoil, manually operated weapon to someone of smaller strength and stature, I still found the "you don't have to aim" and "you have a higher margin for error" comments and another poster who stated how slick his 870 PGO setup was.

Can someone use a pistol grip only shotgun for HD?

Yes, they can.

Can some use a "slam fire" (a shotgun lacking a trigger disconnector) weapon like the M-1897 for HD?

Yes, they can.

Can someone of smaller size and stature operate a shotgun effectively?

Yes, they can except that they still won't be able to operate the weapon as effectively as a weapon that's better suited to their size and strength.

Do you have to aim a cylinder bore (no choke) shotgun at typical HD distances?

Yes, and anyone advocating anything to the contrary really needs to go to a range and pattern their shotgun if they don't believe that.

Can some of smaller size and stature operate (acquire target, aim, pull the trigger, reload if/when necessary) a high-recoil manually operated shotgun faster than a smaller, lighter, semi-automatic carbine like an AR-15?

Not that I've ever seen, but if someone has seen such a thing I'd certainly like to see, hear, or read about it.

Is there any reason why you would ever hand a weapon intended to save the life of someone you love, and I assume the OP loves his wife, that is less than optimal for that person?

Let me put it this way, sometimes my wife and I love each other and sometimes we can't stand to be in the same room with each other and I'd never think about handing her a PGO shotgun for HD. It doesn't matter if she "can handle it" or not, it will never be optimal for her size and strength and it doesn't matter how much training she has.

My opinions fall somewhere between gutter trash and cow manure in their level of importance in the grand scheme of things, but since the OP asked and I still see the comments about how you "don't have to aim" or "I have a PGO shotgun and it works for me" I'm gonna state my opinion.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:48 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by kbd512 View Post
Vikingdad, I did read through all the responses and while most of them were against the theory (unproven by evidence) that you should hand a large, heavy, high-recoil, manually operated weapon to someone of smaller strength and stature, I still found the "you don't have to aim" and "you have a higher margin for error" comments and another poster who stated how slick his 870 PGO setup was.

Can someone use a pistol grip only shotgun for HD?

Yes, they can.

Can some use a "slam fire" (a shotgun lacking a trigger disconnector) weapon like the M-1897 for HD?

Yes, they can.

Can someone of smaller size and stature operate a shotgun effectively?

Yes, they can except that they still won't be able to operate the weapon as effectively as a weapon that's better suited to their size and strength.

Do you have to aim a cylinder bore (no choke) shotgun at typical HD distances?

Yes, and anyone advocating anything to the contrary really needs to go to a range and pattern their shotgun if they don't believe that.

Can some of smaller size and stature operate (acquire target, aim, pull the trigger, reload if/when necessary) a high-recoil manually operated shotgun faster than a smaller, lighter, semi-automatic carbine like an AR-15?

Not that I've ever seen, but if someone has seen such a thing I'd certainly like to see, hear, or read about it.

Is there any reason why you would ever hand a weapon intended to save the life of someone you love, and I assume the OP loves his wife, that is less than optimal for that person?

Let me put it this way, sometimes my wife and I love each other and sometimes we can't stand to be in the same room with each other and I'd never think about handing her a PGO shotgun for HD. It doesn't matter if she "can handle it" or not, it will never be optimal for her size and strength and it doesn't matter how much training she has.

My opinions fall somewhere between gutter trash and cow manure in their level of importance in the grand scheme of things, but since the OP asked and I still see the comments about how you "don't have to aim" or "I have a PGO shotgun and it works for me" I'm gonna state my opinion.
so you take my remark and take it out of context. wow. i said higher margin of error for a reason. never did i say a shotgun didn't need to be aimed. i simply said it had a higher margin for error, which is true. the pattern for a shotgun at close range, say 15 feet is about 4-6 inches. how big is a pistol or rifle caliber compared to that? it's pretty small. so with the shotgun, the degree of the margin of error is better. even a less than perfect shot with a shotgun will do significant amount of damage at close range. if i were to aim center mass and hit the BG in the shoulder, it will still stop him or slow him down and allow for a follow up shot if needed.

i give a lot of thought to what i post. especially when i post information that deals with potentially life threatening situations. it's not a subject i talk about lightly. the nformation i give here is the same i give my own wife and loved ones.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:35 PM   #44
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so you take my remark and take it out of context. wow. i said higher margin of error for a reason. never did i say a shotgun didn't need to be aimed. i simply said it had a higher margin for error, which is true. the pattern for a shotgun at close range, say 15 feet is about 4-6 inches. how big is a pistol or rifle caliber compared to that? it's pretty small. so with the shotgun, the degree of the margin of error is better. even a less than perfect shot with a shotgun will do significant amount of damage at close range. if i were to aim center mass and hit the BG in the shoulder, it will still stop him or slow him down and allow for a follow up shot if needed.

i give a lot of thought to what i post. especially when i post information that deals with potentially life threatening situations. it's not a subject i talk about lightly. the nformation i give here is the same i give my own wife and loved ones.
So, axxe55, do you advocate giving women, most of whom are going to be smaller than most men and will not have equivalent upper body strength irrespective of their size a pump shotgun for HD or a smaller, lighter, faster to point (more ergonomic) carbine like an AR-15 that doesn't have the comparatively severe recoil that the pump shotgun has and three to four times as many cartridges in the magazine?

If you agree with giving a woman a lightweight carbine, then I'm not sure what the argument is. If not, give both weapons to your wife and see which one she can fire four cartridges with at two different targets the fastest. Let me know how that goes.

If a woman needed to make a follow up shot with the AR-15, is there any reason to believe she could not make the same shot just as fast with a carbine as with a pump shotgun?

Do you think people just fall down and die, even if mortally wounded, because they've been hit with this or that weapon?

I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. There's a mountain of evidence from the police and military that show that marginal hits are still just marginal hits. If you don't hit COM or CNS or something structural (bone), don't expect the target to react much to it, if at all. It doesn't matter if you do it with a .22, a shotgun, or a hand grenade. The difference with a semi-automatic carbine like the AR-15 is that you have ammunition to spare if you miss, your hit is marginal, or your target is wearing concealable body armor.

I've not made any comments about the seriousness or lack of seriousness of any particular poster on this forum, just that a small percentage of the statements seem to run directly counter to what I've observed and experienced. It also seems like there are a couple of posters who think I was speaking specifically to them with respect to all of what I said. I know what you posted and I know what you did not post. In spite of what Vikingdad posted, I read every single post in this thread (more than once). There was one poster who said "you don't have to aim" (not you), another poster who said "there is a higher margin for error with a shotgun" (you), and another poster who provided a picture of his cool looking 870 PGO setup (not you).

If you want to give your wife a shotgun for HD instead of a lightweight carbine like the AR-15, be my guest. I think you're being intellectually dishonest about what would be best suited for the overwhelming majority of women but be my guest.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:44 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by kbd512 View Post
So, axxe55, do you advocate giving women, most of whom are going to be smaller than most men and will not have equivalent upper body strength irrespective of their size a pump shotgun for HD or a smaller, lighter, faster to point (more ergonomic) carbine like an AR-15 that doesn't have the comparatively severe recoil that the pump shotgun has and three to four times as many cartridges in the magazine?

If you agree with giving a woman a lightweight carbine, then I'm not sure what the argument is. If not, give both weapons to your wife and see which one she can fire four cartridges with at two different targets the fastest. Let me know how that goes.

If a woman needed to make a follow up shot with the AR-15, is there any reason to believe she could not make the same shot just as fast with a carbine as with a pump shotgun?

Do you think people just fall down and die, even if mortally wounded, because they've been hit with this or that weapon?

I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. There's a mountain of evidence from the police and military that show that marginal hits are still just marginal hits. If you don't hit COM or CNS or something structural (bone), don't expect the target to react much to it, if at all. It doesn't matter if you do it with a .22, a shotgun, or a hand grenade. The difference with a semi-automatic carbine like the AR-15 is that you have ammunition to spare if you miss, your hit is marginal, or your target is wearing concealable body armor.

I've not made any comments about the seriousness or lack of seriousness of any particular poster on this forum, just that a small percentage of the statements seem to run directly counter to what I've observed and experienced. It also seems like there are a couple of posters who think I was speaking specifically to them with respect to all of what I said. I know what you posted and I know what you did not post. In spite of what Vikingdad posted, I read every single post in this thread (more than once). There was one poster who said "you don't have to aim" (not you), another poster who said "there is a higher margin for error with a shotgun" (you), and another poster who provided a picture of his cool looking 870 PGO setup (not you).

If you want to give your wife a shotgun for HD instead of a lightweight carbine like the AR-15, be my guest. I think you're being intellectually dishonest about what would be best suited for the overwhelming majority of women but be my guest.
personally i don't use our AR for SD. and for the record my wife handles a 12 ga just fine! she can handle just about any firearm in our house for SD. she is taught with any new firearm brought into our home and very few does she not shoot. we keep two pistols and one shotgun in the bedroom for SD use. she know fully well how to use all of them.

my first wife was a very petite woman of about 5' 3" and about 105 lbs. thinking she couldn't handle a firearm because of her size would make a fool out your thinking in a big hurry. size isn't the only factor. and to judge women based on the fact of their size or stature or the fact they are women is just chauvinistic and assinine thinking.

but in all fairness, yes a firearm needs to be matched to the person. whether they be male or female.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:52 AM   #46
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I wouldn't "give" anybody anything they didn't want to try out. I would't tell anyone what they have to use for SD. That is just asinine.

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Old 02-25-2013, 01:00 AM   #47
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I wouldn't "give" anybody anything they didn't want to try out. I would't tell anyone what they have to use for SD. That is just asinine.
my wife enjoys shooting shotguns and is quite capable with them. she also shoots most all the pistols i own and does quite well with them. should have seen herwith my father 357 Magnum! almost sad to say, but a couple of times she out shot my father and i. she would make him re-evaluate his perception of women if he saw some of them shoot.

the bosses son, who is 10 yo, can shoot 12 ga shotguns with the best of them. does a lot of duck hunting with his father. he also like deer hunting as well.

so anyone to discount women or people because of their size or stature is simply foolish.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:07 AM   #48
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Have you ever been to a Trap or Skeet range? Very small ladies shooting 100 Blue Rocks with a BT-99 is not at all unusual? We must have a lot of "Nancy" boys who think shotgun shooting is painful.

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Old 02-25-2013, 01:15 AM   #49
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My boys shot slugs out of the Mossberg with no butt plate yesterday. Probably a dozen rounds each. This afternoon one of them said "Maybe shooting all of those slugs wasn't such a good idea after all."

"Shoulder hurt?" I asked.

"Maybe trying rapid fire was a mistake." He says.

"You notice I didn't shoot any?" I says.

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Old 02-25-2013, 01:23 AM   #50
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personally i don't use our AR for SD. and for the record my wife handles a 12 ga just fine! she can handle just about any firearm in our house for SD. she is taught with any new firearm brought into our home and very few does she not shoot. we keep two pistols and one shotgun in the bedroom for SD use. she know fully well how to use all of them.

my first wife was a very petite woman of about 5' 3" and about 105 lbs. thinking she couldn't handle a firearm because of her size would make a fool out your thinking in a big hurry. size isn't the only factor. and to judge women based on the fact of their size or stature or the fact they are women is just chauvinistic and assinine thinking.

but in all fairness, yes a firearm needs to be matched to the person. whether they be male or female.
Axxe55, the next time you two are at the range have her fire 200 rounds of 556 at a target with your AR and then have her fire 200 rounds of full power 00 buck with the shotgun at a target. Towards the end of the practice session, ask her which cartridge she thinks she could fire the fastest into the target, if required to do so.

Apart from that Remington 00 buck (I've never purchased anything but Remington and Winchester) costs at least twice as much per case as 55 grain FMJ 556. Yes, I'm sure you can purchase cheaper ammo from somewhere. Yes, there are currently lots of people who have contributed to the shortage of 556 by buying ammo they can't or won't use. Between the two, in normal times, you need twice as much money to practice or train with 00 buck as with 556. You don't have to be very good at math to figure out which weapon is more economical to own and operate.

If you aren't using the same load for practice as HD, may I ask why? All the ammo I shoot in practice and training is the same stuff I will actually use for HD, or I won't buy it.

If your wife can't use one of her arms for some reason, does she have the strength and dexterity to operate the shotgun effectively with her remaining arm? Injury is a distinct possibility in any confrontation. I'm not sure how much your shotgun weighs, but my 870 weighs over nine pounds.

Admitting that my wife, 5'2" about 90-100 pounds or so is smaller than me at 5'10" 185 pounds, has shorter arms than me, and will never have my size or strength is not chauvinistic, it's just reality.
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