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Old 09-03-2012, 08:12 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by JonM View Post
Police and game wardens in alaska arm themselves with 12ga shotguns using slugs to fend off grizzly.
They are usually investigating, going AFTER, wayward bears. Hunting THE BEAR if you will. But of course one has to aim a shotgun.

I just want to maximize the liklihood of effective shots and a bad slug shot is as bad as a rifle's bad shot. Not quite the same with a shotgun. I have relied upon this in Alaska myself -- I don't see anything not being stopped short by a head-on shot with the shell I suggested.
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:47 AM   #42
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A 308 isn't in the same ballpark as a 3" 50 cal sabot. You have to get a 300 wm to put more energy on the target. I have split a large pine stump with a solid copper 50 cal slug that a backhoe couldn't budge. Once I split the stump I put the teeth of the bucket into the split and wiggled it. I dug the stump up in 15 minutes after those 2 steps.

Bears are tough but they are not as tough as pine that has turned to fat lighter. I have shot several black bears with copper slugs. They went down instantly with a single shot. Lead shotgun slugs are for deer and light skinned game. If you need penetration the copper sabot is the tool for the job. I have the best luck with 3" Brenneke copper sabots.

One poster mention deer running around with old buckshot wounds. Buckshot has a limited range. At 40 yards few deer will run any distance after being shot with buckshot. At 50 yards you are lucky to get enough penetration to kill the deer.

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Old 09-09-2012, 04:52 AM   #43
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The 12 ga. slug and buck loads are the best Brown Bear guns. I load every other one slug and buck. During ever attack you are going to get seperated from your long firearm. A powerful handgun in a strong holster is you last best chance. The handgun can stay with you during the mauling you are going to get. In an attack you are going to get hurt bet on it, the handgun can be your best last chance. The handgun can be used to signal searchers after the attack.

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Old 09-09-2012, 08:29 PM   #44
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When I was in Alaska, I carried a 12 gauge short barreled pump shotgun loaded with Brenneke Slugs on the advice of some guides. The Brenneke was important because of its design. A 12 gauge shotgun slug has twice the power of a 44 magnum which was the heaviest handgun load available when I was there. The guides did not think much of the 44 mag. Some of them carried African class double rifles. I carried the shotgun in my hand, not slung because if you needed it you needed it fast. The Alaskan design heavy handguns have short barrels because a long barrel takes too long to draw. The preferred handgun caliber was the 454 Casull last time I looked.
Make noise when you are hiking. You dont want to surprise a bear. Especially one with cubs.

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Old 09-09-2012, 09:30 PM   #45
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The 12 gauge slug has been used to kill every species of animal on this planet at one time or another.

It is NOT the preferred weapon for many of the larger species, however although there have been failures, there have also been some successes. It is considered a good last-ditch defense weapon.

It needs to be pointed out that with a large tough animal of greater than 300 pounds, the always found in Walmart and similar places, hollow (Foster) 12 ga slug is not really what you will want. Those are primarily designed for deer. They can kill the bear but there are enough tales of under penetration that you probably will wish to avoid the experience.

You will be seeking a 12 gauge slug designed for maximum penetration, not expansion. Leave the buckshot at home. Unless it is a contact wound over a vital organ you will probably regret using buckshot on an angry bear.

There are several approaches for assured penetration with a shotgun. The oldest one was a solid lead ball (used in BP shotguns, called a pumpkin ball, fairly inaccurate, but quite effective under 20 yards).

In today's world I would look for Brenneke slugs (much more accurate and nice deep penetration). If you couldn't find them, then with the understanding it will be a smaller hole in the animal I would look for Discarding Sabot shotgun slug ammo. They usually fire a .50 sub caliber round often of hour glass shape. BRI makes some. There are also some solid steel slugs made by a Russian firm called Tandems, but I have no experience with them.

In the days when people routinely culled critters that wanted to eat them a standard trick was to first destroy the animals shoulders from a distance. The theory being a 4 legged animal suddenly down to only 2 legs moves more slowly which gives you time to aim more carefully. I really don't see a bear presenting you with a legal 150 yard shot (especially if they aren't even in season). Most states laws would require you to just find another route and avoid the animal. At 25 feet I wouldn't waste time on that technique. Sheer momentum would probably put the critter on me or you. Bears can be unbelievably fast when they think their life is at stake.

In America, 90 times out of 100 a black bear seeing a human will go the other way. Exceptions include, bears used to humans because some moron intentionally fed it, a momma bear protecting cubs (which you may not see), a bear who feels trapped (possibly because there are other humans nearby creating a feeling of being surrounded), a bear who has already been injured and who is full of adrenalin, territorial dispute (is that his deer you just killed? Let him have it). Adrenalin fear will make a bear charge you and usually his intent is to knock you down and keep going (this is where people playing dead have a chance). Adrenalin anger is a whole 'nother story. He will kill you if he can, and rip your corpse into the tiniest pieces he can (playing dead is of no value in that situation). Watch the documentary series 'Grizzly Man' especially the list few minutes of soundtrack. I would describe that (unusual, but inevitable) ending as a mix of a territorial dominance dispute and resulting Adrenalin anger.

Understand that in the last 100 years many armed hunters on foot have been killed or mauled by bears even after they shot it. Sometimes both bodies have been found at the same location. I used to have a friend with some deep furrows carved into his cheek (and the bone underneath) still there years after he 'killed' the bear. What you are proposing could go either way.

Second issue. I very strongly suggest taking some of the exact same slug ammo you are planning to use and the exact gun you are planning to shoot to the range together. Do a few slow strings of 5 shots through the pump onto a posted target of 25 yards or so while you are standing to get used to it. Now do the same in rapid fire as fast as you can work the pump.

Check the gun. I strongly recommend the shorter slug barrels, hopefully with fiber optic front sights. I have seen many pump actions that can nicely shoot all day with bird shot and occasional buckshot, develop serious problems when they encounter the rapid firing of slugs. If the gun is okay, score your target, then do another string of rapid fire. check target and gun.

IMO, you are not ready to do your experiment if your group size at 25 yards while standing, in rapid fire, exceeds 6-9 inches. Likewise, if small screws and pins you never noticed before have backed out of the gun, or internal parts have sheared, get them fixed, loktite what needs loktite, then do it all again.

An average leopard is smaller than an average full grown black bear. Just last year I read multiple accounts of separate incidents in which the leopards sudden attacks required more than 2 shots of 12 gauge through the chest before they ceased an attack. One didn't stop until the 4th shot into it's mouth blew off the back of the skull. I also read about an incident of one crawling off into the brush (to die) after thoroughly mauling the soldier who emptied his AK into it.

My point is large carnivores are dangerous. I try very hard here to keep at least 100 yards between me and any bear. I avoid them and they avoid me and my house. It works just fine. I have the capability, but I also acknowledge they have capabilities too. Many hunters who hunt bear do so from a stand. Being 20 feet above the animal gives you some advantage. Being on the same plane makes things more equal.

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Old 09-10-2012, 02:06 PM   #46
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Even if your shot destroys the bears heart, the bear will continue his attack for up to a minute after you shoot it. That is why the leopards are still attacking even though they have suffered a fatal wound. The bear/leopard still has enough oxygen in his brain to kill you twice after you destroy it's heart.

(edit) I have to agree on handguns. People who hunt bears with handguns or archery equipment have a guide/partner with a heavy rifle to back them up. To get enough penetration with a 44mag you would be limited to FMJ ammo. Yes, it will kill the bear but not in time to save yourself. Even a 500 s&w mag is dubious as a bear stopper.

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Old 09-10-2012, 02:30 PM   #47
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Absolutely. If there is adrenalin in the system the cells are less dependent on blood supply for their oxygen. Adrenalin allows acidosis so the cells can (briefly) create their own independent oxygen, as well as use whatever oxygen local platelets are transporting. In a breathing mammal this means great strength and endurance. In a no longer breathing or with a heart not pumping mammal this means continued action for a few more minutes or seconds.

Learning this the hard way is why elephant hunters of yore, long ago stopped wasting their time with heart and lung shots on the big beasts and even today try to confine the action to brain shots with a bullet big enough to punch through that thick skull.

That is why you will need to be accurate (and quick) with your little 12 gauge gun when/if the unseen bear suddenly attacks. His brain is tiny and his skull is thick. If you think he was ticked off before, imagine how ticked off he will be if you miss the brain stem and just crease him... Yes sure, in 12 - 30 hours he may succumb to the wound. But for you, not good.

Noting this is a similar scenario to the one that led to the Howdah pistols of old for semi-suicidal tiger hunters.

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Old 09-10-2012, 02:41 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by gladesbassin View Post
Oh yea gator is awesome tasting, you gotta try it one day. You can do it how you want but if you wanna get to the big boys I would do it by boat because the big ones stay far out in the swamp. As for how to kill em...might sound funny but a .22 with suffice...you wanna hit em in the top of the head about 3-4 inches dead center behind the eyes. You don't want a gator head with a exit wound out the bottom part of his mouth. so that's why you use the .22.
Chicken from the swamp!
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