Why isn't a 7.62x39 AR the Perfect Rifle? - Page 2
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Old 10-08-2009, 08:06 AM   #11
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Here's the deal. The 7.62 x 39 round is great - if you are shooting across the street. It hits hard, and it hits with the poop to put someone on their butt.

Now, go out to 200 or 300 yards, and you have a round that ballistically, just inferior to many other options out there.

The AK platform is great, for what it was designed to do. It was designed to be very easily maintained, run in all conditions, and shoot from here to there, on automatic fire, reliably. Mission accomplished.

The problem with all weapons that are op-od driven, which the AK is, is that the recoil forces extra tension on the receiver and accuracy suffers.

The AR platform is a gas powered weapon that doesn't suffer the same problems, so it is "more complicated" but also "more accurate".

Trying to marry the heavy, shorter round of the AK into the AR platform, in my mind, is a bit of a bastardized version of both that doesn't live up to the ultimate potential of either.

The 5.56mm round, coupled with a well built AR, and equipped with hollowpoint or soft point ammunition, is very lethal...

However, I would still prefer to have an AR-10, chambered in 7.62x51 because that round will reach out to 600 yards and still have the terminal ballistics to put a guys face in the dirt.

Properly tuned, several 7.62 x 51mm platform can be tamed and very easy to shoot.

I wouldn't put a stock FN FAL in that category.

JD
Here is my 2 Cents. I think if your gonna get a 7.62 you might as well get a 7.62x54r such as a dragunov. Sure it doesnt have the plastic toy gun look but it is an EXTREMELY accurate semiautomatic rifle that is less expensive than most decent ar's and the 7.62x54r is a round that is still super sonic past a 1000 yards which means it still has way more than enough force to kill a zombie. The ammo is easily accessible through military surplus because it was used in the mosin nagant (which i own). The only down side is that the 54 kicks a good bit.
However on the other hand. In all of these forums everyone acts like if the SHTF they are gonna turn into the next Mikhail Surkov. When this is more than likely far from reality. In modern combat the outermost distance MOST engagements occur at is 300 yards. This is largely because of cover/concealment. Take a look out your window, can you see past 300 yards? are there hills or trees or buildings or houses or cars or... in the way? Probably so unless you live in the desert or in the middle of nowhere in some fictitious grassy plain with no hills. You do not need a sniper rifle in just about any self defence scenario. The fact is a 7.62 round of any powder charge is going to have more knockdown power than a 5.56 at the ranges you would most likely be engaging targets at.
Also concider this. Would you honestly be able to shoot someone from 6 or 7 or 8 hundred yards away? How would they be posing a threat to you? Unless they are sighted in on you (in which case you probably wouldnt see them and if you did it would be to late to do anything about it) there is no real way someone could put you in any danger. So unless your plan is to become a psychotic murderer when the SHTF and just make things worse i would suggest a 7.62 caliber round...and a good sidearm.
Thats the end of my spill let the flamming begin.
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Old 10-08-2009, 01:02 PM   #12
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The Dragunov and the Romanian PSL are definately NOT target rifles, unless you consider 3-4" groups at 100 yds. target material... They are nothing more than AK variants with longer barrels, and currently cost as much as an AR-15. The Yugoslavian M76 Sniper (8 x 57mm) is similarly innaccurate and costs over $1700. I can buy two LR308's (AR-10) for the price of one M76. As far as hitting 300+ yd human targets, I can visualize several scenarios where I would prefer to stop a threat at long range...I would not want to be limited by my poor choice in weapons! As for the 7.62 x 39mm round, it's a medium range round at best, especially out of an AK, and it's ballistics are similar to the Win. 30-30, only the 30-30 does better and has a greater range of bullet selections, meaning I would select a scoped Marlin lever gun over a semi-auto AK any day of the week. There's not a stock AK made that will out group my scoped Marlin or Winchesters. Additionally, I am not limited to FMJ ammo, and in a SHTF situation my goal will be to kill, not wound.

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Old 10-08-2009, 01:58 PM   #13
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Have you considered an SKS rifle? It shoots the affordable 7.62x39, just like the AK. I have been told the SKS has slightly better range & accuracy than most AK variants. On a first hand basis, i am sure the accuracy is a bit better (in my hands) than my buddy's basic WASR-10 version of an AK. I like my buddy's WASR/AK, but my SKS seems more "rifle-like" i guess.

It won't look as cool as an AR & mounting a scope will be more challenging on an SKS. It will be less expensive to purchase and simpler to maintain. Consider it an option.

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Old 10-08-2009, 10:19 PM   #14
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Have you considered an SKS rifle? It shoots the affordable 7.62x39, just like the AK. I have been told the SKS has slightly better range & accuracy than most AK variants. On a first hand basis, i am sure the accuracy is a bit better (in my hands) than my buddy's basic WASR-10 version of an AK. I like my buddy's WASR/AK, but my SKS seems more "rifle-like" i guess.

It won't look as cool as an AR & mounting a scope will be more challenging on an SKS. It will be less expensive to purchase and simpler to maintain. Consider it an option.

I have a Yugo SKS which was sold as "arsenal new". The accuracy is not even close to my three 30-30's. I have tried two different brands of aperature sights in an effort to get better results, to no avail. I have not tried US made ammo and have only shot Wolf, Hot Shot, and other cheap ammo's. Scope mounting on an SKS is a shot in the dark unless it is a side-mount scope since the bolt cover mounts have excessive play. It may be more accurate than an AK, but 4-6" groups at 100 yds. is a wall-hanger to me!
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:36 AM   #15
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Scope mounting on an SKS is a shot in the dark unless it is a side-mount scope since the bolt cover mounts have excessive play.
Absolutely true, from what i've seen & tried on my norinco. There is a rail & mount (side) from kalinka that i plan to use on my SKS; the receiver cover mounts don't seem to be sturdy enough.

It is an inexpensive option with inexpensive ammo for someone less serious about regular long-range use. It also has that tacticool look so lacking in a standard lever 30-30.

I wanted a .308 rifle for longer range shooting, until i realized that i wasn't honestly willing to spend the time and money required to make me a competent long-range marksman. I settled for the SKS for now and will probably step up to something with more reach when i have more time & money to devote to my skill level and equipment. If i move somewhere more open, i will probably want to move that upgrade schedule up.
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:57 PM   #16
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It also has that tacticool look so lacking in a standard lever 30-30.
I've had a love affair with lever actions since I was 7 and Mattel made a Winchester 73' capgun. I never lost my affinity for them and find them much more visually appealing than an SKS...not to mention they are a piece of Americana instead of a combloc weapon used to kill Americans. About the only reason I bought an SKS is because back in '94 the government said I couldn't!
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Old 10-10-2009, 07:07 PM   #17
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I don't mean to insult you if this sounds wrong. But i know for a fact that a dragunov svd will shoot better than 4" groups at 100 yards. This result was NOT the rifles fault they ARE sub moa rifles in the right hands so if you or someone you know was shooting 4" groups that close it is because the person was either unfamiliar with the rifle or doesnt have much skill. I'm really trying to not sound like a bloc fan but also the ak is a relatively accurate rifle at the ranges it was intended to be used at. The main reason it is said to be so inaccurate is because of the recoil incured during full auto fire which is tremendous compared to the straight back stock designs of more modern weapons. However in semi auto fire it is plenty accurate enough for anything within 300 yards.

Although i gotta admit if im going for pure accuracy i am not choosing a svd. I am not choosing an AR either though, my choice would be an m40 or a higher end civilian rifle such as r700 or a savage tactical in 7mm mag or 300 short mag Although shot mag ammo comes with a pretty hefty price nowadays. All of which are bolt action but hey im just talking reach out and touch someone capability.

I know this is off topic but i wonder if russia still uses the svds as their primary sniper system or if they have something else out now. Does anyone know?

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Old 10-10-2009, 08:02 PM   #18
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The Dragonuv SVD is NOT a sub moa weapon. Not in the right hands, not on a good day, not with a Leprechaun in your pocket.

You have a 24 inch barrel that is not free floated. Strike One.

You have a gas-operated, piston driven, non harmonically isolated, short gas stroke action. Strike Two.

You need specifically designed ammunition to achieve the required results of the Soviet Military, which is only 1.24 Minute of Angle at 100 Meters. Draw.

Now. Compare that to a weapon that can shoot .75-1.00 MOA all day long with off the shelf ammuntion??

The fact of the matter is game progammers and fiction authors the world over have sold this rifle as "The Best Sniper Platform in the World".

I can list 10 rifles that will out shoot the SVD all day, in the hands of anyone, that don't need some Russian super technology cartridge to get the job done.....

JD

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Old 10-10-2009, 08:42 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
The Dragonuv SVD is NOT a sub moa weapon. Not in the right hands, not on a good day, not with a Leprechaun in your pocket.

You have a 24 inch barrel that is not free floated. Strike One.

You have a gas-operated, piston driven, non harmonically isolated, short gas stroke action. Strike Two.

You need specifically designed ammunition to achieve the required results of the Soviet Military, which is only 1.24 Minute of Angle at 100 Meters. Draw.

Now. Compare that to a weapon that can shoot .75-1.00 MOA all day long with off the shelf ammuntion??

The fact of the matter is game progammers and fiction authors the world over have sold this rifle as "The Best Sniper Platform in the World".

I can list 10 rifles that will out shoot the SVD all day, in the hands of anyone, that don't need some Russian super technology cartridge to get the job done.....

JD

Please provide said list......I'm curious.
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Old 10-10-2009, 08:57 PM   #20
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Please provide said list......I'm curious.
Sure. You just want 10 rifles? Ten rifles in that price range? Ten rifles that are semi auto? Or what?

I can do this all day long... LOL
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