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Old 10-19-2010, 01:30 AM   #11
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Guess i kinda lost my sense of practicality there for a second entertaining some crazed scenario where you're in combat and supplies have been cut off for long enough that failure from a dirty gun is an issue. Nevermind.
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:49 AM   #12
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Carry a couple of pipe cleaners and a small vial of this lube in your B.O.B. and you should be set for more battlefield time than you could ever hope to have to participate in.

Nothing wrong with thinking about extreme conditions and preparing for when the Space Zombies start walking the Earth, we all know they are coming.

You are among like minded folks here.

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Old 10-19-2010, 03:42 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by urban View Post
Guess i kinda lost my sense of practicality there for a second entertaining some crazed scenario where you're in combat and supplies have been cut off for long enough that failure from a dirty gun is an issue. Nevermind.
Plan on humping 10,000 rounds...you will run out of ammo in that scenario long before your gun seizes from firing.
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Old 10-19-2010, 06:48 PM   #14
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Default I like the AR overall better than the AK.

Hi Gunners,

Had one each copy of AR15 and AK47 (actually it was a Hungarian semi-auto: AK85S). They got more wear from cleaning than from hard use so I do not speak with any authority. Howsomever, in my non expert opinion, the AR handled better and was much more accurate than the AK. They were both fun to shoot. An analogy might be made as follows. The AR is a Corvette and the AK is SUV.

I sold both of them when the Peoples' Republic of Kaliforniastan made it a pain to keep them legally. Sometimes I thought that at 50 yds. I could put a several 5.56 round through the same hole...I could not really, but it was accurate!

Another thought is that I believe the direct impingement system is inherently lighter. Handling the Galil, in my distant memory, was a clunkier affair. I believe when the Israelis decided to build an ideal battle rifle they wedded the AK system to the 5.56 round. If I am not mistaken they actually use mostly M16s and market the Galils elsewhere. Also, H&K built a delayed blow back system piece in 5.56 which is also less handy than the AR.

Dillinger, please correct me on the weight issue...sounds like you are more experienced than I am.

Be well, and don't forget to Check Your Six;

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Old 10-24-2010, 11:39 PM   #15
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i choose a piston out of ease of cleaning.....i seriously wish i had a nickle for every hour of liberty WASTED at the armory....scrapping baked on crap out of every little crevice of your bolt and bolt carrier not to mention the charging handle, the charging handle rail (especially around where the gas tube enters the upper) and having to illegally remove the trigger mechanism (apparently us grunts are too dumb to reassemble it) to get at the lowest point of the lower reciever ....MUUUCH easier to quickly clean a piston system.
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Old 10-28-2010, 02:38 AM   #16
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[QUOTE=Highpower;369207]That says it all right there.

In it's infancy, the M16 got it's (deservedly) bad reputation because of two reasons. The original ammunition was loaded with a particular ball type powder that left a lot of nasty gunk in the gas system and receiver that caused stoppages. The other problem was that troops were not even issued cleaning kits for these rifles in the beginning stages of Vietnam.

After changing to a stick type powder which burned much more cleanly and issuing cleaning kits for the rifles, those issues went away for the most part. But the bad rep has lived on.....


true but the weapon was originally tested with the stick type powder and was everything that the military had hoped it would be. the military is the one who change the ammo type because of the cheaper price.

As far as DI vs. piston
its that the higher rate of fire from the DI that is the advantage. but since none of us are going to fire full auto it doesnt really make any difference.
the piston on the other hand will work longer in harsh conditions. if you use cheap ammo in either will probably cause problems due to the tight tolerances of the weapon. but even then cheap ammo has cause my sks to miss fire but that was also after 200rds or so of it. that was also the longest i ever cleaned that sks too. and that is a weapon designed for crap ammo. if you keep your weapon clean as you should either way it doesnt really matter.
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Old 10-31-2010, 03:52 AM   #17
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[TE=Dillinger;369042]This argument can go 'round and 'round for days, so I will try to take some of the steam out of it with this explanation, not saying I will be successful... LOL

The Direct Impingement system is the way the platform was designed. It harnesses gas from the round and directly cycles the bolt/action.

When the M-16 went to Vietnam, there were complaints that it would not work well if dirty/muddy.

Changes were made, education was initiated and the weapon system moved forward.

At the same time Good Ol Mikhail over in Mother Russia had developed the AK platform, which was a knock off/copy/ hommage to a German design.
hs system is a piston, or op rod, type platform. The gas is harnessed near the bore and it drives a piston to cycle the action. As there is less overall travel of gas, the "piston" or "op rod" covers the distance with solid metal and does not allow the same kind of dirt/mud/grime.

Wars come and go, AK's come to the states, people start getting interested and then we have the AK vs. AR battles/tests/comparisons.

Someone got the idea of why not combining what is great about the AK, the fact that it will run no matter where you are deployed, with the more familiar AR platform.

There was money to be made - need I say more?

From a very novice gunsmith wannabe standpoint, you get this:

The AK is not as accurate as the AR - regardless of who made each model. If you compare skill level of maker to skill level of maker, the AR is more accurate. The piston system of the AK causes flex in the barrel with each follow up shot, so accuracy is compromised past shot one.

Adding a "piston" to an AR does the same thing. It is "more reliable" but you are losing accuracy because of the way the cycling of the action must work, you have harmonics along the barrel.

At street to street, house to house type of fights will this affect the "average" shooter?

NO! Absolutely not. Out to 50 yards, Minute of Bad Guy is going to be Minute of Bad Guy unless you are trying for a head shot.

At 200 or 300 yards?

Yes! A hit with a DI AR might not be a hit with a piston AR. Not that you can't get man sized hits, you can, but the DI is going to be more accurate.

So, you want to build one. The Piston versions are more expensive currently so if cost is a factor, and I guage that it is by your post, it is going to be cheaper to build a DI edition.

Personally??

I live in the Pacific Northwest. We get rain, wind and usually blowing pine needles and "junk" about 8 months out of the year. Now, I have never gone on a three day creep with my AR, or put a lanyard on it and pulled it through a swamp, followed by a sandbox, followed by a wet concrete pour, but I have never had weather conditions cause my weapon to stop working.

Could it happen? Yes. If you do not take care of your equipment, any piece of equipment can fail, for the most part.

For most folks, the benefit of the AK has always been it will run dirty, cold, wet anywhere on the planet and keep heads down with that distinctive chatter.

In my mind the benefit of the AK has always been the heavier round. Why take the negative, the piston/op rod, and keep the smaller, less powerful AR cartridge?

I feel the Piston AR's are a solution where the problem was created by people Rube Goldberging something to death.

Good luck and feel free to PM if you have further questions on a build.

JD[/QUOTE]

Mr Dillinger,

The reason these post keep going "RE: the m16" is because the Direct Imprigement is a horrible design. A lot of the members know this. There will always be a problem with this operating system. How many Solders and Marines have died because of the M16? You tell me but there is more than one. If you were the one, would you be defending the M16? I hope this post helps some of you and good luck to the rest of you.

Patret
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Old 11-11-2010, 12:36 PM   #18
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i honestly prefer loss of life to loss of libo.....at least loss of life because of the rifle is my fault....but libo can never be reclaimed, nor is is my fault for not maintaining the rifle.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:46 PM   #19
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urban,

you may want to be aware that Bushmaster has just sent out a notice this month for owners of the ACR to discontinue use immediately until they are contacted.
As far as the gas piston system it is a personal preference issue. I am an avid FN and M1-A fan and the gas piston system. However at this time with the ARs being modified to adapt there have been some issues with some. I guess looking at the situation having shot several of them for the money I would stay with the Gas Impingement (DI) as long as you buy a top quality rifle. I have many ARs made by several manufacturers and I will tell you I have a Rock River Elite CAR A-4 that has somewhere in the neighborhood of 30,ooo rounds through her. She is in the 5,000 serial number range to show how old she is I think I purchased her in 2001. I have re-barreled her about two years ago due to throat erosion. But to my knowledge she has had only three or four malfunctions probably caused by ammunition or magazine. I do clean her after every outing whether training, just shooting or hunting. So all systems have their quirks it is as the guys stated personal preference and a funding issue for you. Good Luck and there are some good weapons being made in each format.
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Old 11-23-2010, 09:05 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patret View Post
Mr Dillinger,

The reason these post keep going "RE: the m16" is because the Direct Imprigement is a horrible design. A lot of the members know this. There will always be a problem with this operating system. How many Solders and Marines have died because of the M16? You tell me but there is more than one. If you were the one, would you be defending the M16? I hope this post helps some of you and good luck to the rest of you.

Patret
Mr. Patret - Your position that the M16 is the reason for loss of life holds absolutely no water with me or anyone else that has studied modern warfare. You could have equipped each single soldier with a phase plasma rifle in 40 watt range and people would still have been killed do to the tactics of the other side.

The Direct Impingement system is perfectly well designed for the application needed. If you try to pigeon hole it and make it something it is not, then you will find it doesn't fit. Much like trying to take an AK or SKS and make a 1,000 yard sniper rifle out of it.

If you read the entire post, you will see there was information on both sides of the issue, but the question was still should an Op-Rod AR platform be a good purchase. As can be seen in several examples the answer is still a very resounding NO.

Bringing up the state of what happened in the life of any weapon design has little to do with this thread, or any thread that does not specifically ask "what weapon has resulted in the most loss of user life".

JD
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