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Old 01-07-2013, 12:34 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by silverado113 View Post
You can also comitt a crime 10 minutes after passing a NICS check as well. So does NICS really prevent someone from committing a crime with a firearm? 99% of my customers hold secret clearances so I'll take my chances with them.
True, but that's a crime committed AFTER the sale, which nobody can predict, no amount of background checks will prevent the sale of a gun to a person who WILL commit a crime in the future, only block the sale to those who have committed one in the past. If you have a CCW permit, and had the background check done 2 years ago on your 5 year license, and then one year later, you commit some crime, if you go into a gun store today to by a gun, an NICS check would show the crime and prevent you from buying a weapon vs the FFL dealer approving the sale based on a CCW license where the background check was 2 years ago.

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And exactly how are you "going to be held responsible"? If you sell a car and it later turns up plowed into a crowd of people, they are going to charge you with leaving the scene of an accident?
They could. Where does the paper trail go? My sister sold her high school beater car to a guy who lives in the area. seems he had no license, or it was suspended. He never took the car in to get it registered into his name, and he didn't put tags on the car. My sister kept the license plates though, because she was putting them on her new car which is allowed in the state of Ohio. well, the guy who bought the car crashed it, then ran from the scene of the crash. Police ran the VIN and found that my sister was the last registered owner. They came knocking on her door to ask about her car that was left at the scene of the crash. Lucky for her, she had a bill of sale with the guys name and signature on it, and the police were on their way.

Now, what would have happened if she had said "oh, I sold that car a month ago. ...sorry I don't know the guys name or where he lives....and he paid me cash so I have no record of the transaction..." ? hard to tell for sure, but if she had no evidence to prove that she sold the car, then legally, it was still her vehicle, and she COULD have been held responsible. The Police might not have been able to prove that she was driving and thus she wouldn't have had to worry very much about criminal charges, but any property damage done, the insurance companies would have surely come after her for compensation.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:57 PM   #62
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True, but that's a crime committed AFTER the sale, which nobody can predict, no amount of background checks will prevent the sale of a gun to a person who WILL commit a crime in the future, only block the sale to those who have committed one in the past. If you have a CCW permit, and had the background check done 2 years ago on your 5 year license, and then one year later, you commit some crime, if you go into a gun store today to by a gun, an NICS check would show the crime and prevent you from buying a weapon vs the FFL dealer approving the sale based on a CCW license where the background check was 2 years ago.



They could. Where does the paper trail go? My sister sold her high school beater car to a guy who lives in the area. seems he had no license, or it was suspended. He never took the car in to get it registered into his name, and he didn't put tags on the car. My sister kept the license plates though, because she was putting them on her new car which is allowed in the state of Ohio. well, the guy who bought the car crashed it, then ran from the scene of the crash. Police ran the VIN and found that my sister was the last registered owner. They came knocking on her door to ask about her car that was left at the scene of the crash. Lucky for her, she had a bill of sale with the guys name and signature on it, and the police were on their way.

Now, what would have happened if she had said "oh, I sold that car a month ago. ...sorry I don't know the guys name or where he lives....and he paid me cash so I have no record of the transaction..." ? hard to tell for sure, but if she had no evidence to prove that she sold the car, then legally, it was still her vehicle, and she COULD have been held responsible. The Police might not have been able to prove that she was driving and thus she wouldn't have had to worry very much about criminal charges, but any property damage done, the insurance companies would have surely come after her for compensation.
If I have a CCW and I have open charges it doesn't mean NICS will pick that up either, it's happened plenty of times. Until the state or federal government says I have to run a NICS every time then I'll just continue on. As I said most of my customers have a secret clearance so I'm not to worried about it. Oh and if you sell a gun as a private individual and don't have a bill of sale, legally (on the criminal side) there is nothing that can be done to you unless you violated a state law, etc. Someone may bring a civil suit, but that's a different story.
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Last edited by silverado113; 01-07-2013 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:36 PM   #63
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And exactly how are you "going to be held responsible"? If you sell a car and it later turns up plowed into a crowd of people, they are going to charge you with leaving the scene of an accident? WTH to you come up with this crap? Stop posting out of the side of your neck and get real. Deliberately inflaming a situation with exaggeration is a characteristic of troll.
My mistake. Very well, I will restate. You MAY POSSIBLY be held responsible.

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And what "Federal case" are they going to make? Once again trollish behavior.
Umm, blow me. Note that that is in the form of a question. Don't even try to tell me the govt. doesn't have a propensity of making examples out of people, cause they feel like it, or any one of a thousand other reasons.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:43 AM   #64
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What? ATF does not HAVE to "storm" into an FFL to get the info,,,
But, "storming" is so much more colorful than walking, strolling, or moseying...makes it sound like they threw a flash/bang grenade first and then crashed through the door with full body armor and night vision goggles...
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:25 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by clem_
I did not know where to put this qustion.After you buy a gun at a store and fill out the AFT foarm they have a record of you owning that gun now! right? or another way to look at it is a paper trail I'm asking this because if this it ever comes down to conforstation they (the Govt) knows where to go! so its better to buy in a privite sale....huh?.
Depends on wether or not the seller requires a bill of sale , if the seller knows you or if the seller bought the weapon from a seller that did not require a bill of sale or not exec,etc. Generally speaking I prefer private sales because the price is usually much lower than a brick and mortar store.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:30 PM   #66
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"i sold all of my fire arms at the gun show a few weeks ago so I could get some money from them before Obama confiscated them. Sorry for the trouble officer. Have a great day."
Love the response!
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Old 01-12-2013, 03:26 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by silverado113
The 4473 is kept on file with the dealer for 20 years, if the dealer goes out of business before that time the 4473s are shipped to the ATF's warehouse in West VA. The idea behind the 20 years is for tracing on guns found at the scenes of crimes, what the ATF does with those 4473s when they get to the warehouse, I can't say. Also if even if a private sale bought from a dealer and then sells to you, what makes you think he won't give your name up when the ATF or other government agency knocks on his door? You are also posting on an open gun forum and I'm sure they can trace your IP address. They know who you are.
It's 10 years. All else is right
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:44 AM   #68
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It's 10 years. All else is right
Hmm I was told 20 by my IOI let me check the regs unless you have a link.
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Old 01-13-2013, 03:48 AM   #69
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It's 10 years. All else is right
Nope it's 20 years. From the ATF's website.


Q: Do FFLs have to keep a copy of ATF Form 4473 if the transaction is denied or for some other reason is not completed?
FFLs must keep a copy of each ATF Form 4473 for which a NICS check has been initiated, regardless of whether the transfer of the firearm was made. If the transfer is not made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. If the transfer is made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 20 years after the date of the sale or disposition. Forms 4473 with respect to a transfer that did not take place must be separately maintained.

[27 CFR 478.129(b)]
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:05 AM   #70
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I dont know how it is where youre from but where im from ccw holders dont go buy a gun and then go commit a crime. We have pride in being law abiding citizens, and our ccw permits get confiscated and revoked if we are convicted of a crime

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