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Obsolete or Underestimated?

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Old 10-07-2007, 02:46 PM   #11
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If we're going to talk about building clearers,then yes,a bolt action,or semi-auto rifle would not be my weapon of choice the case of building clearing,I'd be taking the M3A4 or the MP-40...or even a W-12 Riot Shotgun for room to room combat...all 3 guns and other weapons in that class would perform IMO,as well as the M4..Unless we are talking a range over 200 yards,then I would stack the STG-44 in the mix as well,which IMO,would be competetive with the M4 at that distance
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Old 12-02-2007, 04:09 PM   #12
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Default Obsolete or Underestimated?

Hello all


Obsolete, or underestimated?

When (In the 80's) the russians invaded Afganistan, the typical Fighter had a Lee Enfield, Number Bolt, maybe the later Number 4 if he was lucky, a smattering of other older designs! They came out a year later all with AK, AKS, AKS-74? Obsolete? No such thing in a primitive setting? Plus, a few months later the Peswar Gun makers stared making thier own AKs? If an old 50-100 year old bolt action gets you a Brand new, shiny AK or AKS or Krinkov, whats obsolte about it?

Cases of Black Power cannons made out of water pipe knocking down HIP-8's and Damaging Hind Attack Helo's?

Been there, seen that, and know what it looks and feels like?? LOL

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Old 12-02-2007, 08:12 PM   #13
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I have the very M1 Garand my father carried with him in WWII, I shoot it from time to time, and it's a wonderful weapon. That said, I can't imagine having to carry that thing in battle, or anywhere else for any distance. The standard battle rifle I carried (M-16) was considderably lighter, more ergonomic, faster, an I could carry a lot of extra lighter weight ammo as well. And a tactical weapon it is not. The older weapons went to the wayside for good enough reasons, and as a whole, my little black rifle served me well and good when it needed to without being hard to carry.
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Old 12-08-2007, 01:15 PM   #14
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The M1 rifle certainly does qualify as tactical, assuming we're going by Merriam Webster's definiton--using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront
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Old 12-09-2007, 12:53 AM   #15
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I dont know any one who carried a garand to complain of the weight.check the weight of any battle rifle going back to the revolution.they weight much the same.I think the m16 makes a good jungle rifle the m14/m1 a good open field rifle.the m4 has lost its velocity.why are they going to 6.8 take is an m1/m14/k43 for long range.a grease gun for clearing rooms.any thing else level it with a 105 or 155.
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Old 12-18-2007, 01:38 AM   #16
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In Iraq I had an M4, which is a necessity if you're wearing body armor. My short arms needed the the adjustable buttstock with my interceptor vest. In Bosnia I had the standard M16A2 with the older kevlar vest and I felt it was awakward. The older weapons are still effective, especially the M1 Garand. The key with the Garand is a way to store the loaded 8 shot enbloc clips. The Mossberg riot shotguns we had in iraq are no better than the Win M-97 or Win M-12 trench or riot guns used in both World Wars.
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Old 01-01-2008, 01:45 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Linchpin View Post
The M4 rifle is accurate I have heard shots being made at 600 yards one shot kills ( what else do you want ) I for one can hit inside the 8 ring consistitly at 300 yards with no training. I'd take the fire power of a M4 in the steets while getting shot at with ak's over a bolt action any day. I am not saying a bolt action rifle dosen't have a place in modern warfare but clearing buildings is not one of them. they are more for long distance persision shots. In warfare most of your shots are for supression fire and The M4 manages that nicely. As far as the M4 being plastic the only plastic part on them is the shroud over the barrel and that is reenforced with a metal liner they ar not britle guns they can infact take a lot of abuse.
I am no expert, but a one shot kill at 600 meters with a .22 caliber round is probably very very rare.

Even at 300 meters, it would have to be a very well placed shot,which is tough with the extremely effects of wind on that round.
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Old 02-14-2008, 06:58 AM   #18
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Though I have a deep respect for vintage weapons like the M1 Garand, the hard fact remains that today's battlefield weapons are technologically superior in virtually every way.

It was the best we had during WWII, but simply wouldn't be practical or wise on today's battlefields.
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Old 02-22-2008, 09:09 PM   #19
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SKS anyone ? Especially the Chinese D or M models ?
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Old 04-28-2008, 07:23 PM   #20
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Time, technology, training and tactics are what make the modern weapons better than the older, heavier ones. Time, a lot of it, has passed along since the M-1 Garand was invented and put into service. During that amount of time, new systems and improvement to old systems have occurred to make things better. So, time and technology interlock as far as firearms are concerned. Training or better yet, the ability of modern people to learn has improved as the educational levels have increased along with ways of communication and training. Now you can go out and buy a dvd with tactical information/training on it to help increase the speed and amount of your knowledge. When you couple everything with new or improved tactics then you can see how we have made things better. Back in the 1940s there were no SWAT teams so house-to-house fighting in urban situations was costly and dreaded by the average infantryman. In the 1970s police departments brought SWAT teams to fruition and now both the military and police are using them to keep from losing people in urban combat environments. So, everything considered, the older rifles had their time and place. They EARNED their positions in history and in the hearts of us who shoot. But now it is time for the newer rifles to come into their own. And, as time passes, the rifles that we presently use and make history with will one day also go into faded glory because they will have also earned their place in history and our hearts as shooters. I would never suggest that rifles like the M-1 Garand are worthless because they are not. But, like a front-loading black powder musket or rifle, the older rifles are not quite as good for modern people as modern rifles are. There are advantages to both but the conveniences always lie with the modern firearms.
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