Obsolete or Underestimated?
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Old 09-22-2007, 03:35 PM   #1
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Default Obsolete or Underestimated?

I havn't been in this forum long,but I've read and replied to some interesting opinions. so I figured now is the time to start my own.
I'm a big fan of older guns,WWII era especially.
Now,bearing this in mind,it is my opinion,that in todays battlefield,a world war II weapon,in the rightly trained hands of course,would and could serve as well as our "newer models"...Both have their cons,both have their pros. For instance,the German STG-44 would never have the fire rate or accuracy of say,an AR-15. But I honestly believe weapons like
The M1 Garand,Mosin Nagant,Karabiner98k,Enfield,SpringField '03,Gewehr 42 and weapons of that type still would have a place in today's battlefield.
And weapons like the MP-40,Thompson,and PPsH Model Sub Machine guns would be particularly useful still in the urban battlefield settings of Iraq. Of course,I have never seen combat in Iraq,or,ever seen combat anywhere,so if I am wrong,feel free to argue with me,thats what I am hoping for.

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Old 09-22-2007, 03:50 PM   #2
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Ok, my opinion..

Depends on what battlefield you are talking about. If you are talking about close quarters urban fighting, then the older MP40, PPSh, Sten would be ok, as that is what they were designed for. The STG-44 was basically an early version of the AK, which is an intermediate cartridge.

Now, if you get back to battlefield, or more long range type stuff, then yes, the Garand and others of it's class, in capable hands would do pretty well.

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Old 09-22-2007, 07:02 PM   #3
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Similar to the battlefield which we face in Iraq,that kind of battlefield

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Old 09-22-2007, 09:13 PM   #4
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I agree in the right hands they could still be useful but not practical. In a battlefield like in Iraq I don't see many advantages besides the more powerful rounds (albeit some much less plentiful) for the older rifles over the M16. You have to consider all aspects of the gun, weight, ammo power and availability, capacity, and accuracy (which largey depends on the shooter). I would feel comfortable with my Garand in a battle situation, but if someone offered an AK instaed I might be tempted .

I will also add I would be more comfortable with my Enfield or 98k if it were longer range fighting over an M16.

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Old 09-25-2007, 02:03 PM   #5
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It's a shame they won't let you go into a combat situation with a weapon you're most comfortable with isn't it?
But then again,you mentioned practicalities...Lets take the M1 Garand for instance,or even the Springfield '03...Both are Very capable sniper weapons,even by today's standards,the 30-06 round is plentiful,and they are much cheaper to produce than current model weapons in their class..However,they are also shorter ranged,louder,and perhaps heavier...as I said,both have pros and cons,but then again,if you were a great shot...your target wouldan't be around to report your position...

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Old 09-25-2007, 05:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolt Action View Post
It's a shame they won't let you go into a combat situation with a weapon you're most comfortable with isn't it?
But then again,you mentioned practicalities...Lets take the M1 Garand for instance,or even the Springfield '03...Both are Very capable sniper weapons,even by today's standards,the 30-06 round is plentiful,and they are much cheaper to produce than current model weapons in their class..However,they are also shorter ranged,louder,and perhaps heavier...as I said,both have pros and cons,but then again,if you were a great shot...your target wouldan't be around to report your position...
Also they have less capacity. Now-a-days it seems shots available at the finger trumps actual accuracy which is unfortunate.
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Old 09-25-2007, 09:46 PM   #7
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The old firearms seem to have a soul or feel that is lacking in the newer arms.
I really like my older military firearms and am very pleased to have them. However, If I had to hump several hundred rounds of ammo for them I think that I would perfer to use an M-4. Half the weight of the M-1 or 03a3 and the munitions weigh less. Even the grenades for the 203 are smaller and lighter than the M-79s.
However the M-14 still plays a role (at least it was still being used in the mid 90's by the Navy) and I have heard that some units are requesting it for long range work.
While the WWII weapons are not by my standards "obsolete" They have been superceded by weapons that are lighter to carry and provision. Besides who would want one of those old things! The older weapons would also be harder to supply. While .30-06 is plentiful here in the states, out conus it is harder to locate.

Also if the weapons were still current issue then they wouldn't be C&R, now would they?

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Old 09-26-2007, 02:28 PM   #8
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An accurate bolt action rifle with good optics will always be viable.
Usefulness of a bolt action rifle in modern battlefields will depend on the environment. (Offensive or Defensive)

Due to sheer volume of targets in the sand box, Follow up shots are desirable, but not mandatory.
Most 'Designated Marksmen' would prefer an M-14 semi-auto to a M-40 or M-24 simply for the volume of fire the M-14 can bring to the urban battlefield.

As testament to the M-14 rifle, 244,000 have been taken out of storage and as quickly as they can be refurbished and fitted with 'Match' barrels they are being deployed to middle east units that are screaming for them!

If the situation were reversed, and the Marines/Army were on the offensive (True military sniper situation), the hyper accurate bolt rifles would be more desirable.
I do believe there is still a place for the early bolt rifles in this situation.
The K-98 and Nigant are both viable rifles in hunting or sniping roles.
.............

Military units that qualify for the AR-10 Rifles are clamoring for more!
The military has finally 'Discovered' that the AR format rifle is a much more formidable weapon in the 7.62x51MM chambering!
The AR-10 has a near mythic following in Israel because of what the snipers have been able to do with it, and the Egyptians fear the AR-10 like no other rifle because of it.

In my opinion, the AR-10 is one of the most under rated and overlooked rifles available today.
------------------

After 16 years as a military armor and several real world deployments,...
I believe that the 9X19MM round is totally inadequate for a side arm, and only marginal as a sub gun round.

Now that engineering has caught up to rounds like the .45 ACP it's a much better round for urban clearing.
New sub gun designs remove nearly all recoil, and frangible rounds eliminate over penetration.

108,000 1911 service pistols have been refurbished or are in the process of being refurbished and shipped to the middle east.
Special operations units are receiving new frames that accept double stack magazines and resist sand fouling/jamming.

Glock's latest version chambered in .45 ACP is in final trails now. Since the Glock can be supplied much faster than the other versions of .45 ACP, Glock may finally take it's rightful place as a US side arm.

HK has a new .45 ACP sub gun that is a goofy looking thing! Double stack stick magazine and ergonomic design makes this thing look like something off a very old science fiction movie!
Looks like Janet Reno, but shoots like Annie Oakley!
The reports from the special operations troops is VERY positive.
Few cycling/firing problems and stays on target nearly effortlessly.
--------------------

The .45 GAP (Glock Automatic Pistol) round has been dropped by US military testing, but has been picked up by Finland of all places!
The Fins do have a history of being ahead of the curve...
Browning P-35's, AR-10 rifles, ect.

Seems their large stock piles of P-35 (Browning Hi-Power) are aging, and they are looking for something in double action with more knock down power this time around, but will still use the accessories, Holsters, Magazine Pouches, ect, and won't disrupt the training their 'Operators' have with the P-35.

Our government/military doesn't look to save money or get value from anything... (or we would be issuing Glocks in .45 ACP instead of the Baretta in 9MM)!
....................

Anyway, just my 2¢ worth.
It's worth exactly what you paid for it!

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Old 09-26-2007, 04:13 PM   #9
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True,the weapons of the 2nd world war are indeed heavier..But I've picked up [no offence to you AR folks out there] an AR-15 and weapons of it's kind and I feel....plastic...and with a gun that I'll be sliding on,shooting,slamming around,and doing any other horrible thing that comes with ducking and covering in a war situation....I'd want something stout feeling,like the nice feel of an M1 Garand,or my personal favorite,the Mosin Nagant M44...But you are also right int he fact that,1...the newer weapons carry what...20-30 rounds per clip and have a quick rate of fire,VS a Mosin,which is bolt action,and only has a 5 round magazine.But nothing seems to beat the feel of it to me..

But also another good point is raised...Unless you're firing from a prone position in the distance,the standard military procedure now is...more bullets,more chance to hit...so I'm sure alot of our Military Commanders would much rather take an M-60 or M-16 over a Mosin Nagant or the MG-42 any day..which yes,is very sad..it appears the skill in shooting is all but lost with these newer model weapons..
Still however,bearing these things in mind,if I were going to Iraq,and they gave me a choice of weapons I'd take...It would either be the Mosin Nagant M44....Tokarev SVT-40,or the Karabiner 98K...

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Old 10-07-2007, 12:50 AM   #10
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The M4 rifle is accurate I have heard shots being made at 600 yards one shot kills ( what else do you want ) I for one can hit inside the 8 ring consistitly at 300 yards with no training. I'd take the fire power of a M4 in the steets while getting shot at with ak's over a bolt action any day. I am not saying a bolt action rifle dosen't have a place in modern warfare but clearing buildings is not one of them. they are more for long distance persision shots. In warfare most of your shots are for supression fire and The M4 manages that nicely. As far as the M4 being plastic the only plastic part on them is the shroud over the barrel and that is reenforced with a metal liner they ar not britle guns they can infact take a lot of abuse.

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