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Old 07-11-2008, 04:20 AM   #31
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Ammo was another factor. I just bought another 700 rounds of 7.62x39 today for $160. Try that for 5.56. I can buy a ton of ammo without breaking the bank. Yeah, it's not match grade, but it works.
http://surplusammo.com/product_info.php?products_id=219&osCsid=f856e27d0a bc60ddc324ed7d005fc6ba
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:59 AM   #32
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Ok, that's a really good price.
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:30 PM   #33
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well the issue of stopping power will be cleared up when the army decides to adopt the 6.8 SPC.
do you think they are really going to adopt 6.8 SPC? it would be a great round to replace 5.56 NATO but there are too many bureaucrats in the pentagon and then we also have to deal with NATO standards etc. At least FN made it so that the SCAR could be made to take 6.8. they say the terminal ballistics are similar to a .243.
with that said the issue of stopping power has been largely attributed to the NATO 62 grain ammo. we don't have those limitations here in the states. you can stock up on any quality LE ammo like hornady tap or even federal gold medal. the only problem is the price compared to 7.62x39.
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:40 PM   #34
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You just can't fade the prices at surplus ammo.

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Old 07-12-2008, 05:28 AM   #35
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6.8 Rem isn't being used by American forces. It was designed as a go between for 5.56x45 and 7.62x51, but it has yet to be adopted by any military units. It would just require too much work and wouldn't be cost effective.
Well I heard somebody say on a forum that he had some buddies that were special forces and used the 6.8 SPC. The 6.8 SPC wouldin't be mainstreamed in the Army because of logistics.

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Originally Posted by coltm4 View Post
do you think they are really going to adopt 6.8 SPC? it would be a great round to replace 5.56 NATO but there are too many bureaucrats in the pentagon and then we also have to deal with NATO standards etc. At least FN made it so that the SCAR could be made to take 6.8. they say the terminal ballistics are similar to a .243.
with that said the issue of stopping power has been largely attributed to the NATO 62 grain ammo. we don't have those limitations here in the states. you can stock up on any quality LE ammo like hornady tap or even federal gold medal. the only problem is the price compared to 7.62x39.
Well I heard the issue with stopping power is when it's fired out of the M4 carbine. I think the armys bigger problem is finding a replacement for the
M16 and M4.
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:34 PM   #36
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During my last deployment to Bagdad, I was using the M14, and prefer it for combat over both the M16/M4, and the AK. Reasons are as follows, and based off of my expieriences with the M14:

1. More capable of turning cover into concealment
2. Extremely reliable, and will endure abuse during unavoidable circumstances.
3. Very accurate, and well siuted for some of the missions we went on. (Counter sniper missions where the bad guys were armed with primarilly the SVD, Mosin Nagant, and 303 Enfields.)
4. The 20rd M14 magazine is very well made, and can take some serious abuse, and still be capable of delivering the goods so to speak.
5. Ergonomics. I'm not all that fond of pistol grip stocks, and favor the location of the safety. (just a personal thing)
6. Rear sights. Very similar to the M1 Garand, with only real difference being that they use meter increments instead of yds. The rear sights will fully adjust after being covered in mud/sand/some other gunk that I wont mention here.
7. Unfortunatlely for us Military folks, the Hauge convention, (not the Geneva) prohibits the use of expanding bullets, but the 7.62x51mm fodder does seem to do the job well in terms of terminal effects, even if the target has body armor on.

Just a few thoughts off the top of the noggin. Be advised that I am not flamin on any other rifle types here. The M14 is just my personal favorite of the bunch.

Good discussion non-the-less.

11B

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Old 07-17-2008, 11:45 PM   #37
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During my last deployment to Bagdad, I was using the M14, and prefer it for combat over both the M16/M4, and the AK. Reasons are as follows, and based off of my expieriences with the M14:

1. More capable of turning cover into concealment
2. Extremely reliable, and will endure abuse during unavoidable circumstances.
3. Very accurate, and well siuted for some of the missions we went on. (Counter sniper missions where the bad guys were armed with primarilly the SVD, Mosin Nagant, and 303 Enfields.)
4. The 20rd M14 magazine is very well made, and can take some serious abuse, and still be capable of delivering the goods so to speak.
5. Ergonomics. I'm not all that fond of pistol grip stocks, and favor the location of the safety. (just a personal thing)
6. Rear sights. Very similar to the M1 Garand, with only real difference being that they use meter increments instead of yds. The rear sights will fully adjust after being covered in mud/sand/some other gunk that I wont mention here.
7. Unfortunatlely for us Military folks, the Hauge convention, (not the Geneva) prohibits the use of expanding bullets, but the 7.62x51mm fodder does seem to do the job well in terms of terminal effects, even if the target has body armor on.

Just a few thoughts off the top of the noggin. Be advised that I am not flamin on any other rifle types here. The M14 is just my personal favorite of the bunch.

Good discussion non-the-less.

11B
Good to hear reports from the field that state what I've been trying to tell people for years.

The M14 is king.
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Old 07-18-2008, 12:28 AM   #38
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Well, I recently sold my only true, 'battle rifle' - a match grade, M-1, Garand. While it's possible to make 300 yard shots around here, my bones are getting older; and, I don't need the recoil. I thought hard before I let it go; but, the fact is that there are fewer and fewer places where 300 yard shots can be made with complete peace-of-mind. Every now and then a round will escape from our 300 yard range; and, homeowners have complained. (Not that I blame them!)

I could fire across our back pastures at 300 yards +. The hillside would catch the bullets; but, then what? The ricochets might go anywhere. So, here, in Northeastern Pennsylvania the M-1 Garand went; and, the AK and AR carbines stayed. Both are easier for me to shoot, have adequate accuracy, and much better firepower. The AK is exceptionally well-built, and will consistently hit inside 5-6" at 300 yards - That's 65 to 75 yards better than any accuracy I've ever been able to wring out of a WASR or SKS.

Around here you can’t give an older Mini-14 away; and, if you want to sell one, then, you need to find the right, 'neophyte'. The track record on these carbines is, ‘spotty’. Some are very good; and, some are highly inaccurate. Too many of them were set up to chamber 223 instead of 5.56; and, even the Ruger factory can’t tell you which is which! Mini-14 magazine availability used to be a major problem; now, I suspect it’ll be a minor, but expensive, one. (I’d, still, rather use AR/AK magazines. They’re cheaper and much more plentiful.)

In the tradeoff between accuracy and firepower, here, in the northeast I’ll choose firepower every time! I remember how much trouble the Jews had wielding their cumbersome FAL’s once they started fighting inside Jerusalem during the Six Day War. ‘Battle rifles’ tend not to do well inside crowded urban environments.

As far as civilian and surplus 7.62x51mm, ‘battle rifles’ go: It’s essentially the same story as the 223/5.56 problem that the older Rugers suffer from. Commercial 308 Winchester ammunition is NOT the same thing as military 7.62 NATO. (As many of the early purchasers of Springfield M1-A’s found out!) Not only can the ammunition be different, so can the rifle chambers and leades.

The above comments, also, apply to commercially available: FN/FAL’s, CETME’s, and other military surplus, ‘rifle assemblages’.

As much as you might love the M-14, here, in the United States you will be better off fielding a, 'battle rifle', both, chambered in 30-06 caliber AND using 30-06 ammunition. (Anyone who wants to read any of the extended posts I’ve written on these different subjects is welcome to PM me.)

Then there is, also, 308 Winchester vs. 7.62 NATO for your reading pleasure!
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Old 07-18-2008, 02:01 AM   #39
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I couldn't afford a Match grade M14 or Garrand, so I bought the next best thing - A DPMS LAR-308 with 18" bull barrel that prints 1/2 MOA groups with Sierra Matchking 150 gr. bullets and a 6-24x 50mm scope. Someday I will have my M14, but for now my 10.7 lb AR will do. In fact I just read in Gun World that the Army has adopted the Knight M110 AR-10 as their new semi-auto sniper rifle.

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Old 07-18-2008, 01:46 PM   #40
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From personal expierience, I have found that the M14/M1A does rather well with most commercial 308 ammunition. I make it a practice to stay away from any 308 thats marked "light magnum", and I dont use anything bigger than 175gr bullets thru this platform. Springfield Armory even recomends a few commercial loads for use thru thier M1A.


This rifle is a custom built M14 "tanker". Reciever is Norinco, and barrel is a chrome lined std contour/weight Criterion. 1-12 twist with 7.62mm chamber. I regularly shoot WIN 150gr PP, 168gr FED Matchking, and 110GR HOR T.A.P. thru this rifle with no ill effects to date.


This rifle is a factory built M1A Bush rifle. SAI used a non chrome lined std weight 18in 1-11 twist bbl for this paticular rifle, and it shoots various brands of commercial 308 just fine, and rather well I might add.


The Socom eats up anything I put thru it, and seems to love HOR T.A.P. the best for groups.

If anyone is lookin to get into this platform, I would recomend the following to them.....
1. Stick with known USGI/CMI mags. I have had frustrating moments with some other aftermarket mags out there, and they either wont work from the get-go, or are hit and miss.
2. ALWAYS load the M14/M1A by use of it's mag, and NEVER load a round directly into the chamber. The only time I ever witnessed a slam fire was when a guy at the range did this.

BTW.... I dont work for SAI, or any other company. Just a grunt with a soft spot for the M14/M1A.

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