ak vs ar - Page 8
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Long Guns > Auto & Semi-Auto Discussion > ak vs ar

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-11-2010, 03:48 AM   #71
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
KalashnikovJosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,156
Liked 320 Times on 191 Posts
Likes Given: 426

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuate View Post
Previous posts above correctly ansered your question, but I might add that in addition to an AR M4 which I really like I have an Israeli Galil/Golani which is
equally accurate, and easier to clean.

It is a high dollar Kalashnikov improved ! Israel had sand and dirt problems with the FNs or whatever they were using against the arabs whereas the
AKs their enemy used worked fine in the sandy desert. Finland was licensed to copy and improve the AK and Israel began there to come up with their Galil which has an excellent barrel, machined steel receiver and much better sights including tritium night sights. The were manufactured in 5.56 mm and 7.62 (our .308 cal.) Although mine if semi automatic only I woldn't swap it for anything else unless it was a genuine IMI Galil.....
What caliber is yours?
__________________
"You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. An evil system never deserves such allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil. A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul."
-Mahatma Gandhi

http://jpfo.org/
III%
KalashnikovJosh is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2010, 04:05 AM   #72
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
KalashnikovJosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,156
Liked 320 Times on 191 Posts
Likes Given: 426

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FCross7 View Post
The M1A1 is chambered in .30 Carbine. I think you meant M14/M1A.

Just sayin.

-Fred
Yes.Excuse me.

I put too many '1s' in there.....

I'm not an expert.

Just another over opinionated a$$.

I've shot an M1A1 once-the carbine I mean this time-some dude had one at the range.I was making a piece of plastic bag dance in the air with it at about 25 yards....till it had a feed malfunction,and I gave it back to the owner,because being that this was the first time I'd ever even held one,I didnt know what the problem was.(or how to fix it).

Ended the fun I was having with the plastic bag.

I really love peep sights.I probably couldnt have had that sort of quick accuracy with the standard sights on my AK.Well,maybe.I have alot of time with that AK-but I still hate the original sights.

I am getting that techsight peep setup for my SAR for sure!
__________________
"You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. An evil system never deserves such allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil. A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul."
-Mahatma Gandhi

http://jpfo.org/
III%

Last edited by KalashnikovJosh; 05-11-2010 at 04:14 AM.
KalashnikovJosh is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 07:53 AM   #73
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
sweeper22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,373
Liked 234 Times on 186 Posts
Likes Given: 29

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by striker View Post
what is more accurate AK or AR, why?
Not claiming to be an expert, but I look at the two like this:

The AR is...the precision rifle of the two. No question. A well equipped AR15 is pretty spot-on out to 500 yards with a skilled shooter behind it. The strengths of the AR are precision, light weight (gun as well as ammo), and a huge market of interchangeable parts.

The AK is...just plain reliable. This is a gun that can and will take abuse. The AR is high maintainance by comparison. The AK can be effective at a few hundred yards, but lacks the precision to be an ideal offensive (or defensive) choice beyond the first 100 or so...but then, outside of a war zone how often are you extended that far? The 7.62x39 is a hard hitting round and weighs twice that of the .223/5.56, but the AR's rounds tumble to create bigger wounds than their profile might suggest.

Both have their fans, and both have unique qualities. But when it comes to precision, it's not even close.
__________________
sweeper22 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 05:44 PM   #74
Lifetime Supporting Member
FTF_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Shihan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Somewhere being Awesome
Posts: 9,113
Liked 464 Times on 254 Posts

Default

They way I look at it is...
The AK is a Butchers Cleaver, while the AR is the Surgeon's Scalpel.

I think that about sums it up for me.

__________________
Click if you want Awesome
Shihan is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2010, 03:57 PM   #75
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
colmustard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,107
Liked 227 Times on 127 Posts
Likes Given: 463

Default

[QUOTE=Shihan;289179]They way I look at it is...
The AK is a Butchers Cleaver, while the AR is the Surgeon's Scalpel.

Yeah what he said.

__________________

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
--George Washington

colmustard is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2010, 01:30 AM   #76
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
KalashnikovJosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,156
Liked 320 Times on 191 Posts
Likes Given: 426

Default

A freind of mine sent me an email that prompted me to reply.This clarifies my own personal feelings on the matter,and is in no way shape or form to be taken as a slight or an attempt to sacrifice any sacred cows.This is once again my unproffessional opinion,and you can take it or leave it however you like.
I just wanted to share.

The email directed me to a site about some of the newest modifications -gas pistons- being adopted to the AR15 pattern rifle.

Heres the site-

http://www.tucsonguns.com/SBR-001-LWRC.php

At the end of a 'dust test' a very erroneous question is asked.Its in red.

Quote:
What an absurd question-



"Will this LWRC gas piston AR15 end the debate on which is better the AR15 vs the AK47 ??"



To address the continuing 'comparison' made by people on the subject,I find that often times the 'deck is stacked' in favor of the preferred rifle of whoever is making the comparison.


This has gotten totally absurd,with the 'AK-47'(the actual designation of the very first AK pattern assault rifle,which had a milled receiver after numerous problems arose with the manufacturing process of the first stamped receivers, and was itself replaced by the AKM in 1959) in 7.62x39,which was replaced in service in 1974,being compared to the most modern incarnations of the AR.

It is also of note that the actual AK-47 was improved upon by its designers before the AKM was adopted-because there was a change in requirements relating to assault rifles in 1955.




When comparing the AR15 with the AK-47(or rather the AKM)-for the sake of fairness you couldnt compare any of the AR/M16 model updates past 1974,as then you must compare the AK-74 and not the AKM,and then if your going to go even further and compare the two, you have to compare the newest AK patterns and THEN,if your going to compare derivatives of the AR,you have to do the same with AK.

If you want to compare the very first AK pattern rifle,the actual 'AK-47',to the very first AR15 rifle as adopted by the US military-the M16,you'll soon see they both had some difficulty 'out of the gate'.



But for the sake of argument,lets compare the AKM with the AR/M16 pattern rifle that was in service at the time the AKM was in service.



This means the M16A1.



With the often issued 20 round magazines and thin barrels.



And an unreliable impingement system-NOT a current gas piston system,which is represented by the LWRC,which is a modern derivative pattern of AR15.



At that point in the AR15's history,it fit the Air Force's requirements for replacing the M1 carbine,more than it did anything else.



At that point in the AK's history,it fit the requirements for a front line combat assault rifle as specified by the Soviets.



However-BOTH the M16A1 and the AKM were designed to fit the assault rifle concept.

They must therefor be compared not on one or two points alone,such as accuracy or reliability,but on how well they fit the criteria of their design concept-so,the question is,which one is the better assault rifle?



Assault rifles are classified as being of carbine length,with high capacity detachable magazines, and with a select fire receiver chambered in an intermediate cartridge that gives a lower recoil impulse to allow controllable full auto fire and still be able to be effective at what was considered the typical engagement range the average soldier was capable of.



Both rifles fit these criteria.



But as a front line infantry assault rifle-the AKM wins hands down.It was more reliable and robust,harder hitting,easier to maintain,and fired a better cartridge to suit the concept than M16A1.



Despite the adoption of the AK-74 in 5.45x39 -which Mikhail Kalashnikov was against- the 7.62x39 round makes a better combat cartridge because within its range it penetrates cover better.Being able to carry more lighter cartridges does not make up for lack of barrier penetration-in my humble opinion(and possibly in the opinion of Kalashnikov).



So lets look at some other things-



Accuracy-while the AR is a more accurate weapon,both the 5.56 cartridge and the 7.62x39 were designed to fit the assault rifle concept of an intermediate cartridge.Intermediate cartridges are not full power rifle rounds,and they lack real ballistic energy at distances past 250-300 yards while at 500 yards rounds like the .308 are still hitting hard and going strong.

The AKM is plenty accurate within this range,if maybe less than the AR15-it still will hit a man in the chest at the range proscribed for assault rifles.



Cartridge Effectiveness-within the ranges proscribed for assault rifles,the 7.62x39 hits harder.Perhaps there may be some merit to the 'tumbling' of the 5.56,the Soviets even thought so as evidenced by their adoption of the 5.45x39 -much to the dismay of the AKM's designer- but not if what your shooting at is behind cover.The 7.62x39 turns more cover into concealment within assault rifle ranges than does the 5.56(or the 5.45).

And people being shot at tend to hide behind stuff,not stand out there and let you hit them in the open.

Thats why I consider penetration and brute force more important than being able to carry more ammo or having 'poison bullets'.



And any argument about SS109 vs. the M193 ammo making the 5.56 a better round,while somewhat valid in overall comparison,is not valid here,because the SS109 didnt appear until the late 70's.

Even still-SS109 isnt close to 7.62x51 or the Warsaw's 7.62x54r at range.



Full auto fire-the AR15 has a higher cyclic rate of fire and is more controllable than the AKM.However,if you learn to use controlled bursts or semi auto fire at range,this becomes a non-issue.

Accuracy and controllability matter less at the close ranges that full auto fire is most useful.



Reliability-There is no comparison in this department between the gas impingement system and the piston driven one.Piston system wins hands down.Thats why people are putting pistons on new AR-type rifles.'Nuff said.



Simplicity and ease of maintenance-the AKM is so simple a kid could (unfortunately) use it.It is so simple that under stress it would be a glowing example of Murphy-proof KISS.



Ergonomics-AR wins this one.This is why the newer pattern combat rifles being designed to fire excellent cartridges like the 6.5 Grendel are using an AR layout.



This brings us full circle.

I personally believe that the assault rifle concept,especially the intermediate cartridge concept-is inherently flawed in the scope of modern firearms developments.

Limiting the recoil impulse may have at one time in firearms history necessitated a low impulse 'intermediate' round,justified further by the -in my humble opinion- erroneous belief that soldiers cant shoot past a few hundred yards;but today,we have cartridge designs that can give full size performance and low recoil.

Thus,we may see either the evolution of the assault rifle concept and the re-defining of it in these terms,or a whole new breed of rifle.
__________________
"You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. An evil system never deserves such allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil. A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul."
-Mahatma Gandhi

http://jpfo.org/
III%

Last edited by KalashnikovJosh; 05-29-2010 at 02:10 AM.
KalashnikovJosh is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes