ak vs ar - Page 3
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > Long Guns > Auto & Semi-Auto Discussion > ak vs ar

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-27-2008, 12:17 PM   #21
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 630
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default Ak Vs Ar

Hello all/Responce to RL357 and Dillinger


RL, I'm not sure what Model Bolt action he was carring in the Pic? It could have been a Model 70? It's a shadow pic, and you see his outline with the beach behind him! As for Caliber, I assumed it was 308? It could easily have been 30/06, the few times in competition I saw him with a M-21 that he and others built up for match? His son shot a Douglas Barreled M-14 that was a Frankenfish design, but shot well! I would probably defer to Dillinger's comments about the Caliber and the rest? I knew him only a short time in my Navy Career, but see my life as being better for having known him? I remember a lot of Reference to the "White Feather" deal, but also that many said it was a lot of hype? Some said Carlos was "To Cocky", I always saw it as confidence? I never saw the man brag, and never herd him embelish his accomplishments! Many others might have, but he never did to my knowledge? I did hear he had passed away, Thanks to Dillinger, yea 99 sounds about when I remmeber it, but hell, It could have been earlier or later by my shakey memory? His records might have been beat, but the living spirit of a great man lives on!




RON L = SERESURPLUS

__________________
RONSERESURPLUS is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2008, 02:01 PM   #22
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
RL357Mag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Albany,New York
Posts: 3,251
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Thanks JD! That's the book I was thinking of "Whitefeather". Shooting Times did a story on him in the aerly to mid 90's and that's what started my fascination with sniping. I don't know about the efficacy of Ed Kuglers book, but it makes for good reading- and I was most interested in the logistical aspects of sniping, not necessarily HIS experiences or claims. There is a website with a video clip of the .50 McMillan in action by a Canadian Sniper - I believe it is the one you cited..Amazing terminal performance on human flesh! But the skill necessary to make that shot was not the same as Carlos' skill with the relatively underpowered rainbow trajectory of the 30-06 at half the range.

__________________
Guns Have Only Two Enemies-Rust and Politicians
"The United States Constitution (c) 1791 - All Rights Reserved"
If Guns Kill, Do Pencils Mis-spell Words?
Pain is Weakness Leaving the Body - USMC
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
RL357Mag is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2008, 02:07 PM   #23
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
RL357Mag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Albany,New York
Posts: 3,251
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RONSERESURPLUS View Post
Hello all/Responce to RL357 and Dillinger


RL, I'm not sure what Model Bolt action he was carring in the Pic? It could have been a Model 70?


RON L = SERESURPLUS
Ron - I believe it was a Mod. 70 but I am almost certain it was in 30-06. The Rem. Mod.700 was replacing the Mod.70 in the late 60's early 70's, and the common complaint was that the .308 did not have the range. I would love to find a pre-64 Mod.70 30-06 in pristine condition for a reasonable price. All the Winchester collectors I see at the various shows price them way out of reach.
__________________
Guns Have Only Two Enemies-Rust and Politicians
"The United States Constitution (c) 1791 - All Rights Reserved"
If Guns Kill, Do Pencils Mis-spell Words?
Pain is Weakness Leaving the Body - USMC
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
RL357Mag is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2008, 06:07 PM   #24
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3479 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RL357Mag View Post
Thanks JD! That's the book I was thinking of "Whitefeather". Shooting Times did a story on him in the aerly to mid 90's and that's what started my fascination with sniping. I don't know about the efficacy of Ed Kuglers book, but it makes for good reading- and I was most interested in the logistical aspects of sniping, not necessarily HIS experiences or claims. There is a website with a video clip of the .50 McMillan in action by a Canadian Sniper - I believe it is the one you cited..Amazing terminal performance on human flesh! But the skill necessary to make that shot was not the same as Carlos' skill with the relatively underpowered rainbow trajectory of the 30-06 at half the range.
Well, keep in mind that Carlos' longest shots were not made with his bolt gun but with his Unertl 10X scope afixed to the compounds' M2 machine gun! Some sort of field engineering to allow his rifle scope to be hooked up and disconnected, so when he was in camp and surveying the valley beyond what normal fire could reach, he could "snap in" as it was referred too in the writings and shoot the .50BMG rounds out at the enemy.

His longest recorded kill was on a "teenage" arms runner who was riding a bike through the valley loaded down with AK's and munitions. The first .50 cal round either went through the front tire, or just in front of the tire depending on who's doing the writing, but the second round slammed home.

As for the Canadian team, it was either shot two or shot three that made the kill, which is no small feet at that distance regardless of who's doing the talking. Cold Bore shot, in heated conditions, with mirage and wind factors, not to mention a target the size of a dot - I think anyone who tells you they could make that shot on one round ( cold ) is running off at the mouth. To make on-the-fly corrections and be able to send either the second or third round home, again depending on who is doing the writing, into a man sized target at that extreme range is quite a feet of marksmanship.

I have an extensive library on sniping, both by US troops and those abroad, so if you are looking for some good reading, with accurate accounts and in depth information, let me know.

JD
__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2008, 09:48 PM   #25
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 630
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default ak vs ar, Morphed into Carlos H Thread?

Hello aLL/rESPONCE TO Dillinger and RL357
RON L here = SERESURPLUS


As I said, Dillinger, I bow to your superior knowledge of Carlos's Past as a Sniper! When I met him, it was in Va and his condition was getting Pretty bad, First time I met him, he was in Crutches, the second time, I got the Pic signed by him, he was in a Full wheelchair! I think all that was due to his Agent Orange Condition, he lkong had stopped compeating and He was advanced in the disorder that I believe killed him?

I do recall accounts some of the marines told me about using a M2 50 cal, and for the time, that was way ahead of what anyone else was doing? I do re-call a few Books, at the time of all the "White Feather" controversy, but as far as Carlos Himself, I never saw a Cocky side to him? I never saw anyone but a Brother that was sick way long before his time should have! I wish I'd know him better, I wish I'd had duty with him, but, as it was, I was a Young Hospital Corpsman was really in Awe of this Kind, gentle man, who took the time to teach so many, the Love of what he did best! I hear he Passed in 99? I didn't know when, but I was told he had passed? Sometimes the world seems little darker, without the light of those great men that we have had the chance to meet?

__________________
RONSERESURPLUS is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2008, 10:23 PM   #26
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
RL357Mag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Albany,New York
Posts: 3,251
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
Well, keep in mind that Carlos' longest shots were not made with his bolt gun but with his Unertl 10X scope afixed to the compounds' M2 machine gun! Some sort of field engineering to allow his rifle scope to be hooked up and disconnected, so when he was in camp and surveying the valley beyond what normal fire could reach, he could "snap in" as it was referred too in the writings and shoot the .50BMG rounds out at the enemy.

I saw that on another forum - I never knew he "pioneered" the .50 for sniping. That is incredible, and a very ingenious feat to mount a scope on one!

As for the Canadian team, it was either shot two or shot three that made the kill, which is no small feet at that distance regardless of who's doing the talking. Cold Bore shot, in heated conditions, with mirage and wind factors, not to mention a target the size of a dot - I think anyone who tells you they could make that shot on one round ( cold ) is running off at the mouth. To make on-the-fly corrections and be able to send either the second or third round home, again depending on who is doing the writing, into a man sized target at that extreme range is quite a feet of marksmanship.

The Internet video I referred to is: MAKING_A_GOOD_TALIBAN.WMV

I have an extensive library on sniping, both by US troops and those abroad, so if you are looking for some good reading, with accurate accounts and in depth information, let me know.

JD
Thank you. I still have to get to a Borders book store to pick up the titles you gave me a while ago. The Ultimate Sniper, Sniper I & II, and Death From Afar...
__________________
Guns Have Only Two Enemies-Rust and Politicians
"The United States Constitution (c) 1791 - All Rights Reserved"
If Guns Kill, Do Pencils Mis-spell Words?
Pain is Weakness Leaving the Body - USMC
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"

Last edited by RL357Mag; 05-27-2008 at 10:33 PM.
RL357Mag is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2008, 11:30 PM   #27
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3479 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RONSERESURPLUS View Post

As I said, Dillinger, I bow to your superior knowledge of Carlos's Past as a Sniper! When I met him, it was in Va and his condition was getting Pretty bad, First time I met him, he was in Crutches, the second time, I got the Pic signed by him, he was in a Full wheelchair! I think all that was due to his Agent Orange Condition, he lkong had stopped compeating and He was advanced in the disorder that I believe killed him?
No Ron - Please don't take offense, as I meant none what so ever. The mere fact that you met the man is enough of an experience more than warrant you mentioning him in a post, I certainly never would try to contradict that.

My problem with the posts that mention Carlos are usually filled with inaccuracies that don't always paint the Gunny in the appropriate light.

I have the utmost respect for the man, not because he killed enemies with a scoped rifle, but because, by all accounts, the man put the lives of other soldiers ahead of his own. That is, in my opinion, what seperates our soldiers from those of our many enemies.

Gunny Hathcock was exposed to Agent Orange, but at the "end" of his second tour he was part of a patrol that was hit by an IED. The vehicle he was in caught fire, Carlos himself suffered both second and third degree burns, but not in the explosion, he was exposed to the burns getting other soldiers out of the vehicle that was on fire! Later his burns got infected and he was subject to both painful skin graphs and many surgeries just to get back to a "healthy" condition.

Gunny Hathcock may have been a son of a b1tch, he may have been such a "hard" individual that people felt he was inhuman ( he frequently referred to his targets as either "hamburgers" or "hotdogs" but never has humans ), but the man was a hardcore Marine when it came to the rubber meeting the road. He once bounced a very qualified shooter out of his sniper unit because the "FNG" was taking dry beads on Vietnamese farmers within his "open fire zone".

My only concern, when his name is mentioned, is that people get the facts straight.

And YES you have no idea how jealous I am that you got to meet the man. You are a very lucky individual!

JD
__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2008, 11:34 PM   #28
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3479 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

@ RL357Mag - No problem Marine, I am glad to help out. My only concern, whenever the subject of sniping comes up and the mention of our past warriors is brought into question, is that the facts are true and accurate.

The books I have recommended are all good ones that I enjoyed, but there are many others.

As a side note, the books Death for Afar, are a series of books that are available, at last check, from the Iron Brigade Armory ( the Chandler Brother's Rifle shop ) only and are all works of art. The books are leather bound, with seriously thick paper, and the stories are amazing. If you don't buy another book about sniping, ever, get this series.

For training and shooting tactics, the Lonsdale series and especially the John Plaster penned Ultimate Sniper are a must for any long range tactical shooter.

Thank you for your time Gentlemen - I differ the floor to you...

JD

__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2008, 12:47 AM   #29
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 630
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default AK VS AR Morphed into Carlos Thread?

Hello all?Responce to Dillinger


OH no Offence taken or intended on your part, I'm sure! I don't know a lot about Carlos's Past History, I did have the oppertunity to see a Man that I really respected and even with the silly Sailors Vs Marines attitude, I know he liked me and thought that I was worth talking to? He had a lot of Medical issues and yes, I remember him mentioning something about Saving some marines asses in a Burning tank, but never pressed him for details? I know he was in a lot of pain and was on Morphine at the ned and it was a shame to see him like that? Yes, I wish yourself as well as RL357 could have met the man as well! I know a lot of folks hated him, I know a lot of folks thought of him as inhuman? I saw in him the good that he had to offer? He was always willing to tudor those who wanted to learn? That didn't not stop with marines! He taught a lot of Medical folks a lot of what to do in battle situations! I see we have lost a true Gem and I miss him now more, knowing that he is really gone? That time was a long time ago, I'm not young any more either? I see that as a Time in my part of life that God said, "You need to meet this man"? I did and I'm better for it!

__________________
RONSERESURPLUS is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2008, 02:08 AM   #30
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
RL357Mag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Albany,New York
Posts: 3,251
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

I would like to thank you both for information I was never aware of concerning Sgt. Hathcock. I have only read dribs and drabs of disjointed accounts from gun rag writers who got their info from 2nd hand sources. I must say this has been the most interesting post I have ever read on this forum. Carlos Hathcock was responsible for "peaking" my interest in aquiring accurate firearms and learning how to squeeze the most accuracy out of each round expended. I now must get my hands on Whitefeather and the Lonsdale series as well as John Platers' book. Again, thank you gentlemen.

__________________
Guns Have Only Two Enemies-Rust and Politicians
"The United States Constitution (c) 1791 - All Rights Reserved"
If Guns Kill, Do Pencils Mis-spell Words?
Pain is Weakness Leaving the Body - USMC
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"
RL357Mag is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes