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Old 05-25-2008, 01:10 PM   #11
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Thats what I'm Talking about, Shooting at Oversized targets, with Rifles at Prone Position, with Paper as a Target? A Far Cry from Combat and Custom Loads, with Custom Rifles is not whats happening in the "REAL WORLD"! If you like the design of the AR-15/M-16 and all GREAT, but trying to make it into a 500 yard and beyond death ray, is Just SILLY! Most folks don't shoot past 400 yard reliably hitting anything, and in "COMBAT" life blurs the sites a tad? I won't makes claims the AK can't hold if you won't hold the AR up as some sort of perfect weapon, OK? Both have thier UP's and down and it pays to remember that?
All I'm saying is 500 yd. shots are required in the Corp. And 24" targets are not big, they are "combat" targets and they are that size to replicate a human torso. The guns used to score on those targets are well used combat rifles, not new issue, and certainly not custom. The Marines are known for their frugality, in fact they're down right cheap. From the day they join to the day they leave they pay for their own soap, washcloths, toothpaste, and meals. Common practice in the Corp is to steal from the Army when the opportunity presents itself! Pretty soon they'll be charging for their ammo! AS far as the perfect weapon there isn't any, and it certainly isn't the AK - a 250 yd weapon at best. Most WWII bolt action weapons had sights calibrated to 2000yds. The early No.1 MkIII SMLE had "volley" sights off to the side. I know in combat in recent conflicts like Vietnam 2000 yd shots were rare (see Carlos Hathcock), but they are possible. No hunter should ever attempt a shot out to 500 yds. but I know for a fact that during WWII our GI's were shooting across the Rhine and hitting Germans with Garrands. The limitation of the .223 dictates a maximum effective range of 600yds. The original question is which is more accurate and why. The AK can't hold a match to the AR - the reason? At long range it is ballistically inferior, at short range it's barrel length, lousy sights, and sloppy mechanism don't lend themselves to target-grade accuracy. As a CQ battle rifle they excel.
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:39 AM   #12
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HELLO ALL/Responce to RL357

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Once again, It seems to me, your taking a "Memory" of what you remember, Your current use of Custom Loads, with a Rifle that the Troops are not using and trying to Prove that for some sort of Benchmark for what a Normal Battle rifle will do? Your Mixxing apples with Cucumbers? Hitting a paper target at 500 yards and Kilinging someone at theose Ranges is a FAR DIFFERENT MATTER! I've met Carlos and hs son and in fact, shot against his son in a few leg matches in Va, (Got my ass Handed to me), but Carlos and his son, as REALLY THE EXCEPTION, NOT THE RULE! The M-16/AR family are good weapons, other wise I'd not be building another one my self, But they are not a Rifle that Troops use all the time to make 500+ Shots i the real world, not matter how much you want them to! Facts are facts and A lot of other rifles Take the "Sniper Role" for that reason! I like AK better, thats not a fact in dispute, but I do lok to point out it's faults along with it's positive aspects! I'm not sure your applying the same sort of Honesty to your decription of the AR/M-16 Family? Not trying to start a Flame war, But I don't see your opinion as Valid?
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:29 PM   #13
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HELLO ALL/Responce to RL357

Ron L here = SERESURPLUS


Once again, It seems to me, your taking a "Memory" of what you remember, Your current use of Custom Loads, with a Rifle that the Troops are not using and trying to Prove that for some sort of Benchmark for what a Normal Battle rifle will do? Your Mixxing apples with Cucumbers? Hitting a paper target at 500 yards and Kilinging someone at theose Ranges is a FAR DIFFERENT MATTER! I've met Carlos and hs son and in fact, shot against his son in a few leg matches in Va, (Got my ass Handed to me), but Carlos and his son, as REALLY THE EXCEPTION, NOT THE RULE! The M-16/AR family are good weapons, other wise I'd not be building another one my self, But they are not a Rifle that Troops use all the time to make 500+ Shots i the real world, not matter how much you want them to! Facts are facts and A lot of other rifles Take the "Sniper Role" for that reason! I like AK better, thats not a fact in dispute, but I do lok to point out it's faults along with it's positive aspects! I'm not sure your applying the same sort of Honesty to your decription of the AR/M-16 Family? Not trying to start a Flame war, But I don't see your opinion as Valid?
With all due respect, you're not hearing me, and I don't wish to argue this point. What I've been saying is that MC Recruits use standard issue M-16's ( old ones) and standard ball ammo (that's what is issued) to qualify at 500 yd. torso-sized targets. Every Recruit has to qualify at that range to graduate. I am not talking about "custom" rifles firing target-grade ammo, I am talking about basic training in the MC. As far as weapons preferrence, that's a personal choice and I am not commenting on your choice as much as I am the accuracy of the M-16 and ballistic superiority of the standard issue 55gr. FMJ 5.56 over the standard issue 125 gr. 7.62 x 39. The AK is a fine weapon for CQB as has been proven over many years, but even if the 7.62 x 39 could reach the 500 yd mark accurately it will have dropped 23 inches MORE than the 5.56 at the same range given a 200 yd. zero and loaded to the max velocity of 2500 fps. It is NOT a long range weapon. I own an SKS and I enjoy shooting it, but it won't come close to being anywhere near as accurate as any AR-15, and the SKS is more accurate than the AK-47.

The 5.56 x 45 weighing less than half the 7.62 is loaded to 3200 fps and drops about 53" an 500yds. , the 7.62 x 39 drops 77.96". Shots are made at 500yds. every day with the 5.56 because it is capable of such accuracy. The AK cannot consistently (as in qualifying) hit a 500yd. target. A bolt action 7.62, on the other hand, will hit at 500yds. all day. My argument is not with the cartridge, but with the weapon shooting it. If you check the Sierra Rifle Reloading Manual you will see a very comprehensive story about the 7.62 x 39 as used in the SKS and AK variiants. I quote:
" In terms of power, the 7.62 x 39mm is frequently compared to the 30/30 Winchester. However, this is not an entirely accurate comparison. The 30/30 is not only capable of producing higher velocities, but also able to use heavier bullets. The 7.62 x 39mm is adequate for deer at close range, but care should be taken to ensure precise shot placement. The vast majority of rifles chambered for the 7.62 x 39mm are military pattern autoloaders, not noted for their fine accuracy"
On a separate note, I wish I met Carlos. That's one man I would have enjoyed talking with and learning from.
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Old 05-26-2008, 03:57 PM   #14
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HELLO ALL/RESPONCE TO RL357


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OH, I'm hearing you just fine! I'm just not "Buying it"! I'd been in the Military for over 24 years 8 as a "Navy Corpsman"! I think I remember your USMC Quals as I was assigned with the marines for many a year! Recruits do use old Rifles, and the targets were a lot bigger than 24 Inches? I also remember that at 500 yards, many a marine had to re-qualify? Plus, by the time the .223 got there, it might punch paper, not a lot else? I'm not trying to "Flame" you either, but I don't think your placing reality, with real life?

Yes, I agree that 7.62X39 in an AK or SKS isn't rhe range round that .223 is, but at the reasonable under 200 meter ranges used in the REAL WORLD, it serves just fine! I do see some ballistic advantage of .223 but not out to 500 yards! If you wanna do that, go ahead, but ready to record a lot of Misses, unless you use custom ammo and custom rifle! YUP, AK is a real Hoot for CQB and serves well in that role it was designed to serve in! .223 and AR works well on battle field as well, but requires a lot more maintenance, a lot more small critical parts and breaks more often! Different weapons, different uses, but AR is not the weapon to try and snipe with and in cases where it was used, it's again, custom ammo, custom weapon!

Yes, I agree that You would have Liked carlos and his son is a lot the same sort of man! He took "Sniping" to an Art Form and he was not afraid to push the envelope of reality to make amazing shots! A lot less credit was given to his ability to stay till the job was done and both he and his son were sucessfull not due to thier weapon. but due to superior marksmanship and patience and stlking ability! I miss carlos and I don't know if he's passed away or not? i know he was very ill last time I saw him over 20 or so year ago in Va? His son might have retired as well, but to be honest I lost track of both of them after my transfer to thr WEST COAST?
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Old 05-26-2008, 04:27 PM   #15
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[QUOTE=RONSERESURPLUS;25472]HELLO ALL/RESPONCE TO RL357


RON L = SERESURPLUS


OH, I'm hearing you just fine! I'm just not "Buying it"! I'd been in the Military for over 24 years 8 as a "Navy Corpsman"! I think I remember your USMC Quals as I was assigned with the marines for many a year! Recruits do use old Rifles, and the targets were a lot bigger than 24 Inches? I also remember that at 500 yards, many a marine had to re-qualify? Plus, by the time the .223 got there, it might punch paper, not a lot else? I'm not trying to "Flame" you either, but I don't think your placing reality, with real life?


Unfortunately Carlos did die in the mid-90's, I believe of cancer. You are right, his stalking skills and patience were second to NONE.
As far as the 5.56 goes I am not making this up. My son graduated last year from Parris Is. and they still qualify at 500yds. on a 30"h x 24"w target which simulates a human torso. At 500 yds that is not a big target, in fact I doubt that I could even see it today, at 50 yrs. old, much less be able to put the front sight on the same spot every shot. This qualification is a fact that you can easily check out if you like. They use old M-16's (of course they were re-fitted by the armorer) and standard ball ammo, which happens to be quite accurate, that's why I use H335, it's what the arsenals use. Whether they have to requalify is not the issue - the issue is that if they don't qualify at 500yds, they don't graduate until they do, because as I'm sure you've heard from being ex-Navy, "Every Marine is a Rifleman", and that includes the women as well!
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Old 05-26-2008, 08:14 PM   #16
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Nope, Never meant to say you were making it up! I participated in a lot of "Leg matches" at Dam Neck VA, as well was assigned to the Fist and 3RD Marines a time or two, So I do know your qual standards! I will agree that hits at 500 yards are Possible, seen it done, I know that many a Marine can and will do it, but as far as always doing that as a combat arm, it's just overstated! .223 at that range is not gonna get the job done, if we can't agree on that, we will have to agree to dis-agree?


Yes, I wish you could have met and Known Carlos! I was not what one would say was close enough to say I was his "FRIEND", but I did meet and did get to see the man in action and he will be Missed indeed! His son, had a lot of that same charm and grace and I'm sure he misses his Dad a lot? He was arare man, at a Bad time and always would have that Ikmpish smile on his face, if we'd ask what he was smiling about, he'd just chuckle and say It's a "Marine thing", you Squids never would understand? LOL I feel my life is richer having know him!




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Old 05-26-2008, 08:25 PM   #17
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Nope, Never meant to say you were making it up! I participated in a lot of "Leg matches" at Dam Neck VA, as well was assigned to the Fist and 3RD Marines a time or two, So I do know your qual standards! I will agree that hits at 500 yards are Possible, seen it done, I know that many a Marine can and will do it, but as far as always doing that as a combat arm, it's just overstated! .223 at that range is not gonna get the job done, if we can't agree on that, we will have to agree to dis-agree?


Yes, I wish you could have met and Known Carlos! I was not what one would say was close enough to say I was his "FRIEND", but I did meet and did get to see the man in action and he will be Missed indeed! His son, had a lot of that same charm and grace and I'm sure he misses his Dad a lot? He was arare man, at a Bad time and always would have that Ikmpish smile on his face, if we'd ask what he was smiling about, he'd just chuckle and say It's a "Marine thing", you Squids never would understand? LOL I feel my life is richer having know him RON L = SERESURPLUS
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, but NO ONE WILL EVER TELL ME THE AK IS AS ACCURATE AS THE AR, not even close.
I never knew Carlos had a son? He too was a Marine? Didn't Carlos write a book? I thought I read something to that effect many years ago. If he did I would love to get it. I'm sure that man had a lot of good advice, and I would love to hear some of it, even in writing. He held the long range sniping record for many years and I believe it wasn't broken until the .50 cal McMillan came to be...........
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:51 PM   #18
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Nope, never said AK as accurate as AR! Said AK works in Field as well, if not better than AR due to the design, parts rugged reliability and ease of mainenance! We will have to dis-agree what we both would take into battle! I like AR, but I know and Trust AK a lot better?


Yes, Carlos had a son, Trying to remember his name? He was a Scout Sniper 15-18 years ago in the Marines! I met him a few times, but he was close to his Dad, but different sort? Yup, I don't recall Carlos Book title, I do have an autografed pic of him with his Bolt 308, off the dunes in Dam Neck! I'll treasure that forever! Like I said, his son Might have retuied by now? That was a long time ago he was active duty and a senior sgt then? All in all, a very good man, a Great marine and a man who did the JOB! He never kissed any ass, he took a lot of serious wounds and never whined and I miss the man he was and will always be to me?
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Old 05-27-2008, 01:32 AM   #19
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Hello all/Responce to Rl357

Nope, never said AK as accurate as AR! Said AK works in Field as well, if not better than AR due to the design, parts rugged reliability and ease of mainenance! We will have to dis-agree what we both would take into battle! I like AR, but I know and Trust AK a lot better?


Yes, Carlos had a son, Trying to remember his name? He was a Scout Sniper 15-18 years ago in the Marines! I met him a few times, but he was close to his Dad, but different sort? Yup, I don't recall Carlos Book title, I do have an autografed pic of him with his Bolt 308, off the dunes in Dam Neck! I'll treasure that forever! Like I said, his son Might have retuied by now? That was a long time ago he was active duty and a senior sgt then? All in all, a very good man, a Great marine and a man who did the JOB! He never kissed any ass, he took a lot of serious wounds and never whined and I miss the man he was and will always be to me?
Do you know if he (Carlos) used a Rem.700 or Win. Mod.70? I read a book called "Dead Center" written by a Recon Sniper in the early part of Vietnam when they were issued either M-14's or Win. Mod 70's (snipers choice) The author went on to say the Rem.700 was neither as accurate nor did it have the range of the Mod.70. I am assuming the Rem.700 was chambered in .308 for the author to make those statements.
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Old 05-27-2008, 01:54 AM   #20
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Do you know if he (Carlos) used a Rem.700 or Win. Mod.70? I read a book called "Dead Center" written by a Recon Sniper in the early part of Vietnam when they were issued either M-14's or Win. Mod 70's (snipers choice) The author went on to say the Rem.700 was neither as accurate nor did it have the range of the Mod.70. I am assuming the Rem.700 was chambered in .308 for the author to make those statements.
Let there be NO ARGUEMENT - Carlos Hathcock fielded a sporter version ( heavy barrel ) of a Winchester Model 70 chambered in .30-06

Regardless of any published reports, and those of the idiots behind Mythbusters, Gunny Hathcock DID NOT shoot either a Remington action firearm, nor did he shoot a .308.

As for Dead Center - well, I believe that the author has a severe credability issue and his claims of hitting people dead center in the chest, or the head, at close to 1200 yards is complete b*llsh*t. Ed Kugler was a fine soldier, and I appreciate his service, but his book is filled with accounts that have problems being authenticated, not to mention are factually inaccurate.

To my knowledge, Gunny Hathcock himself never penned a book, however there were one, or three, books written with his input about his service in Vietnam.

Marine Sniper: 93 Confirmed Kills by Charles Henderson

His follow up novel: Silent Warrior

Those books were written with, alledged, input from Carlos himself and have stood the test of time thus far.

Carlos Hathcock: Whitefeather was penned by Roy D. Chandler, of Chandler Firearms and Iron Brigade Armory. Roy Chandler was a Marine Sniper and this book is the only officially listed autobiography of Carlos Hathcock.

I will discuss military sniping all day long and if you plan on running Gunny Hathcock into the ground, I strongly suggest you get your facts straight as I will have you guts for garters if you plan on demeaning the man.

Whether you like him or not, or you believe his stories or not, the man is a Marine Legend because he did more than was necessary to insure the protection of those around him with the skill behind his perfectly developed trigger finger.

JD

PS - Gunny Hathcock died on Feb. 23rd, 1999. His official service jacket includes 93 confirmed kills with over 300 probable. The only person with more official kills from that era, in the US service, was that of Chuck Mawhinney with 103 confirmed.

Oh yeah - I almost forgot to address this: The current longest confirmed kill belongs to the ranks of Princess Patricia's Light Infantry, which field a three man team, with shooter Rob Furlong, who dumped a Taliban fighter at an amazing 2,430 meters ( 2,657 Yards !!! ) with a McMillan Tac-50 Bolt-Action Rifle chambered for .50BMG

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