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9mm SBR Application


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Old 07-19-2017, 03:42 AM   #31
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a couple of blogger's articles, on couple of websites, and an agency that keeps changing their minds over the years as to what is the best cartridge to use for self defense?

okay. trust whatever makes you happy.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:58 AM   #32
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Yeah gunsite doesn't know anything.
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:09 AM   #33
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Yeah gunsite doesn't know anything.
i'm not the only one questioning your reasoning on this.

there are way too many variables that change, to make a blanket statement that says a 9mm is a more penetrating cartridge inside a home than the 5.56mm. i really question any so-called expert's level of knowledge, if they make such a statement as fact.

then you want to try and edit you answer, to include "usually" as some sort of quantifier. then you post up a couple of articles, an throw out the testing the FBI as if all those are the final authority on the issue.

well, you you can place whatever trust you have, wherever you feel you must, and that's fine. but, in well over forty years of shooting and practice, i have seen just the opposite than what such tests are saying. so should i not believe what i have seen with my own eyes over all these years and just accept something you are saying at face value, without questioning it?
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:10 AM   #34
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Actually the box-o-truth website tends to try to put a lot of what is accepted as fact or what is argued about on the Internet to "the test". Think of it as kind of a "Mythbusters" for gun nerds.

The type of projectile can matter, such as 55gr FMJ, 62gr FMJ with penetrator, hollow point, etc. the type of material the projectile comes in contact with HP handgun bullets expand great in a liquid rich medium, but not so much in dryer things like gypsum wall board and 2x4s. Bullet construction can matter, more or thicker copper jackets may hold up better and deform less while penetrating more. Velocity matters. A 5.56 55gr FMJ tends to not be able to stay in one piece if it is still traveling greater than 2,300 fps. Those smaller fragments carry less momentum and slow down faster and penetrate less after that initial fragmentation. Most defensive handgun rounds that penetrate a bad guy deep enough to matter are designed to resist fragmentation in their velocity envelope to ensure deep enough penetration as well as expansion.

Another basic truth is, if your ammo won't penetrate a few layers of drywall. It may not penetrate deep enough into a bad guy.

I do recommend checking out the box-o-truth website at least for the trouble the guy went through to perform and record all of his tests. there may be some flaws, but he doesn't usually say something is fact that he hasn't tested. He often doesn't pick a side, just lets the tests speak for themselves. Sometimes makes a hypothesis and is surprised by the findings. He also has some good info on different firearms, collector info, refinishing info. Anyway, a good site to check out if you just dig guns.
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:03 AM   #35
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I never edited my answer to include usually it was always in the post. And facts are facts. I made the factual statement to inform. I will now wait for an apology.
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Old 07-20-2017, 07:51 AM   #36
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I never edited my answer to include usually it was always in the post. And facts are facts. I made the factual statement to inform. I will now wait for an apology.
no sir, they aren't facts, especially when there are too many variables to factor in, that to make such a blanket statement, is false and misleading. and a blanket statement, is not a factual statement.

if you are waiting for an apology, please go sit by your mailbox, and hold your breath waiting for it to arrive.
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:37 PM   #37
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So scientists performing test with controlled variables getting the same result are wrong (FBI). On top off real word testament from one of the best firearms training schools (gunsite). And you dallas53 know more?
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Old 07-22-2017, 02:09 PM   #38
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So scientists performing test with controlled variables getting the same result are wrong (FBI). On top off real word testament from one of the best firearms training schools (gunsite). And you dallas53 know more?
how do you know under what conditions and variables the FBI did their testing to know that those tests were all inclusive?

and now Gunsite Academy is a testing organization? exactly what makes them any more qualified than someone else doing testing?

and with well over fifty years of owning and shooting guns, and from my own experiences, and my own informal testing, (and i used the term informal, since i don't consider myself and expert.) i know that your blanket statements are incorrect and misleading. others, as well as myself have pointed this out to you. i have seen results that show that your comments are false in some ways.

if you are so sure that what i have pointed out, and others have pointed out is incorrect, then by all means do some testing, record the results and post them up and prove all of us wrong.
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Old 07-22-2017, 03:41 PM   #39
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HMH; If you read my post, I made it pretty plain that "usually " does not always happen. "Usually" means there are exceptions. Box O Truth is a great site. Gunsite and The FBI have done testing and "usually" keeps cropping up. Usually means not always. If anyone should be apologizing it is you. There are a huge number of variables involved in any testing. For proper testing the wall boards would have to be set on 2"x4" lumber and then spaced about 10' apart. Maybe even put in some furniture. Penetrating 9 or 10 wall boards 6"-12" apart doesn't prove anything unless you have a very weird home. An interesting test put 1/2" wall board on 2"x4" lumber and gel behind that. There was negligible difference between the 9mm and the 5.56mm. Both penetrated approximately 9" into the gel after passing through the wall board however the gel was placed only a few inches from the drywall. What if the gel was 4'-6' away. Variables. Now if you factor in a 9mm carbine the whole picture changes due to the increased velocity. More than likely a 9mm carbine will penetrate more than 55 grain 5.56mm. Cheap 115 grain 9mm hardball fired from a carbine will penetrate class 3 body armor and I believe the 124 grain NATO load in a carbine will too.
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