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Old 08-06-2009, 11:59 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
Skullcrusher, don't give me that much credit. I'm not the know all, end all of bp weapons. I imagine RL would agree with me for once. He and I don't always see eye to eye. Supporting member? I dunno. Not really much traffic in the areas that interest me.
Well, it is your decision. There is a thread in the Club House where you can get a chance at a free 1 year membership. I'm just sayin' not spammin'. I think you have more to offer than you think. Nonetheless, keep up the good posts in the areas that do interest you. I loved the Hawken build, personally.

Later,

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Old 08-07-2009, 11:00 AM   #12
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Default other side of the rifle

If needed, I can take more pictures, I have to agree that is may have been a flintlock and has been converted. The appraiser in Denver told the previous owner it was made between 1835 and 1860 probably in St Louis because of the german art work on it. Anyway, you cannot read any writing on the barrel except the Stamped letters S.T.S.There is writing of some kind right above the stock but it is worn off for the most part. Here is a picture of the lock etc.
rifle6.jpg  
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Old 08-07-2009, 05:24 PM   #13
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The lady who actually gave the gun to me has answered a few questions, I think the gun was used in the civil war and have asked her about that.she hasnt answered me yet on that. behind the hammer on the stock is a place where it looks like a piece is missing. filled in with something, not sure what. The piece of metal between the hammer and the nipple is double thickness, kind of a U shape cut out, I am not sure what its purpose it but as it was with the gun when I got it, I am keeping it with it.

Since writing this I have found more pertinent information about Stephen Stutler*by the way the lady who gave me the gun is a direct descendant of him* He was her great great great great Uncle as far as she can tell.
Stephen Stutler (First_Last)
Regiment Name 15 West Virginia Infantry
Side Union
Company D
Soldier's Rank_In 5 Corpl.
Soldier's Rank_Out Pvt.
Alternate Name
Notes
Film Number M507 roll 12

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Old 08-07-2009, 09:28 PM   #14
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IMO it was converted using a percussion lock from another rifle. The tang or breech appears to be damaged and I would like to see more pics of that area from different angles.
I would also like to hear RL's take on it.
As for war use I still seriously doubt it. I did some quick online research on the unit and he is listed in the rolls. The unit also saw the elephant a few times. More modern guns with Government ammo access were readily available if not through issue then from battlefield pick ups. I honestly do not see any C.W. soldier carrying a rifle of this type throughout the war or a company commander allowing it. Especially not in U.S. service.
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:45 PM   #15
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Default more pictures and thanks

I have learned several things from you. I Have never owned such a gun before and really had never seen one up close until this one. I appreciate all of your expertise and here are 3 more pictures I just took, let me know anything more you can tell from them. Thanks in advance

Andy
aug-07-2008-001.jpg   aug-07-2008-004.jpg   aug-07-2008-005.jpg  
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:51 PM   #16
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Default more pictures and thanks

This made a double post, my fault and I can't see anyplace to remove the second one.

Last edited by andrewfs; 08-08-2009 at 12:12 AM. Reason: double post
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Old 08-08-2009, 01:08 AM   #17
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OK, I see it now. It's a fixed tang and not a hooked breech and there's wood missing. I knew you said there was wood missing behind the hammer, just didn't realize it went all the way to the breech
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Old 08-09-2009, 12:49 AM   #18
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Looking carefully at the pics there are a few things that raise flags to me. The patch box seems to be a later addition. The crack in the stock runs directly from the butt to the last steel screw in the patch box. I doubt that crack developed over time, and think it likely that whoever installed the patch box did not predrill the hole before inserting a screw. Also, the screws appear to be steel, and not brass, which was more commonly used for fastening accoutrements to wood. I also noticed that none of the brass furniture is inlaid into the wood, as most German craftsmen of the period would have done, leading me to believe that the gun is not of German manufacture. Secondly, after copying the picture of the barrel and lightening it up, it is apparent that the rifling is of the Whitworth type, hexagonal grooved rifling. The problem is that it is NOT hexagonal - it is 7 sided, which I am unfamiliar with. Whitworth invented the hexagonal rifling and a similarly shaped projectile in the 1830's. Also, as Hawg stated, the lock appears to be a flintlock conversion, and this may be the reason for the funky-looking area at the breech. In one picture it is apparent that the bolster is not in proper rotational alignment because the nipple is not square to the fall of the hammer. In fact, the tang seems to be out of alignment with the top barrel flat, possibly indicating that the conversion was done by cutting off the original tang/breech plug. I believe the barrel was drilled to accept a nipple bolster, and the original lock was either altered by removing the old flint cock and replacing it with a percussion hammer, or a new lock was installed. It is possible that this piece saw service in the CW, as the War Department DID alter 3250 flintlock muskets and rifles in this manner. The following is a quote from Philip B. Sharpe's "The Rifle in America" - Mixed Civil War Rifles " When war breaks out, a great many problems arise. Among the chief items of importance is the demand for firearms. Naturally, the United States experienced this during the Civil War, and accordingly all kinds of old muskets seviceable and otherwise, were called into service and instructions given to various armories to restore them to some sort of shooting condition as quickly as possible. All kinds of spare parts for obsolete models were assembled together to form "freak" but shootable arms. In addition, a great many private contractors were supplied with spare parts with instructions to manufacture additional equipment and to assemble them into guns."
Most of these guns however were in the .54 to .69cal range, and the gun in question seems to be in the .40 cal range, judging from the picture of the bore, so I am at a loss for the history of this gun!
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Old 08-09-2009, 01:45 AM   #19
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Default thanks guys

well, I am finally able to access the thread and am thankful for the responses I have gotten. I plan on keeping the rifle and passing it on to my son(Army) The lady who had it told me it was appraised in Denver and she was told anything from 1000 to 1500 for it. What do you men think of that? Or is it a case of whatever anyone would pay for it? I am planning on insuring it separately and am thinking insurance value of 2500? Would that be too much? too little? any ideas?
Oh before I forget, I live way out in the boonies in East TX, am closer to Shreveport LA than any other large place. Anyone know any appraisers around there?

Again, many thanks

Andy
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:47 AM   #20
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Closest one I know of is Rafe Eledge in Savannah Tn. Rafe is a C.W. expert and appraiser for Antiques Roadshow. If he can't tell you anything about your rifle he can most likely put you in touch with someone who can. Maybe somebody closer to you. He will be in Vicksburg with the Roadshow Oct.10 & 11. One of the other experts there might be able to help you.


731-438-3541
Rafael@shilohrelics.com
Rafael & Lori Eledge
230 Guinn Street
Savannah, Tennessee 38372
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