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Old 12-23-2010, 04:46 PM   #21
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First of all, I would READ this WHOLE thread by this guy..

So you want to buy an AR-15, huh?

It is a little old (circa ~2004) but really only the prices have changed a bit. Make sure you read that whole thread, especially about the barrel, feed ramps, FSB, gas system, ect ect. After you read the whole thing...

Go and buy a Spikes Tactical. I've spent the last 2 months deciding which rifle to buy from where (I'll build my own later, I want a complete rifle built by someone else first, I've read what everyone else said about building and that's a great experience, but I want my own perfect rifle for my first AR-15)

Complete Rifles : Spikes Tactical

$799 for a carbine gas system 16 inch

$809 for a mid length gas system 16 inch


These guys are building 1:7 twist, m4 feeding ramps, chrome everything (bore, chamber, barrel), badass designs, really great people and the personal build quality you expect from a smaller company.... PLUS LIFETIME WARRANTY!


The only downside? You have to wait 3-4 weeks for them to build your rifle for you.

I've looked at the RRA for a while, and I personally just don't like the look of their rifles. Call me anything you want, but I want a rifle that I like to look at, and I find RRA has some funky designs that I just don't care for.

Bushmaster? Eh, I haven't called them on the phone, but I promise you that you won't be given the name of the sales lady that took my order and her line to her desk whenever I have a question or anything. I like that about a company, and Spikes Tactical is just an awesome place.

Here's mine BTW.

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Old 12-23-2010, 05:21 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by MrMilspecer View Post
Having Larry Vickers support your product is smart advertising. He is well respected in the firearms world.
I agree completely. His support however, does not in itself improve the quality of the product he is being paid to endorse.

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Getting upset because someone would recomend a Daniel Defense over a Bushmaster makes no sense to me
Who is "getting upset"? I could care less who buys what. It is after all a free country, and capitalism is great in all of it's forms. I'm just not convinced it's that much of a better weapon. That's it.

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These are the specs off the one I own. While specs. may seem worthless to you I will take the extras for free or even pay a little more.
Stop putting words in my mouth, and please read what I said. I never said "specs.", as you call them, are worthless. In fact a great many of the ones you quoted can be just as accurately applied to Bushmaster, as well as several other brands of AR-15 rifles. One over the other isn't going to make much of a difference for 99.99% of the AR-15 owners and shooters out there. You can find horror stories about unhappy customers for just about every company out there.

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I dont understand why people get upset over the words like milspec or the chart.
Once again, no one is "upset". As I pointed out, just because something meets a certain Mil-Spec. does not necessarily mean it is a better product based on that alone. That is constantly applied to AR-15 rifles and the ammunition they use. Federal Gold Medal Match .308 ammunition is some of the most accurate obtainable in that caliber. It is not "Mil-Spec." That in itself means nothing in regards to the outstanding accuracy it produces. Look at the Hi-Power firing line at Camp Perry. You will find some of the most accurate rifles in the world on it at any given time. Few if any are Mil-Spec. Bill T.
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Old 12-23-2010, 06:52 PM   #23
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Here's mine BTW.

Spikes makes a good product. Nice AR.
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Old 12-23-2010, 06:56 PM   #24
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Here is a thread covering what this thread has turned into. A couple notable guys, such as Paul Howe have commented on this topic.

[QUOTE=billt;408078]

Who is "getting upset"? I could care less who buys what. It is after all a free country, and capitalism is great in all of it's forms. I'm just not convinced it's that much of a better weapon. That's it.

QUOTE]

At least you see that it is better.
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Old 12-23-2010, 08:59 PM   #25
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Well I'm going to stick with the manufacturers that have a provin track record. I'm not going to risk purchasing a rifle from a company known for not putting together a rifle properly and using out of spec parts. Not to mention suspect customer service which I consider a major part of the buying experience. Like I said, my piece of mind is not worth a fist full of change...
I agree with what mjkeat, MrMilspecer and others have said which is summarized quite well above. It doesn't cost that much more to buy/build an AR with milspec components over something off the shelf that has untested parts or is of unknown quality. Even though AR parts tend to be interchangeable that doesn't mean they're of the same quality. Our military figured that out long ago and that's why they set military specifications and demand them of their contractors.

A lot of people laugh at milspec standards as being too low and out of date with contracts awarded to the low bidder but still the bar is set higher than many rifles out there with unproven components could attain. Sure an AR sold to a civilian, not the military, doesn't have to be milspec but I want mine to be.

For longevity it's particularly important for high stress components like the bolt (and carrier) to meet military specs: shot peened, Carpenter 158 steel, HP and MPI tested, high quality extractor/spring with black insert, chrome lined M16 carrier with a properly staked gas key. Many bolt carrier groups out there don't meet a single of these specs while those from Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense and others meet every one. Sure either one will drop in your AR but is it smart to save $10-15 on a $130 part that is so critical to reliability and long life? A similar argument can be applied to the steel that goes into the barrel.

This argument can be extended to another long time military firearm, the 1911. There a dozens of clones out there and you have to decide on the quality of the one you want to buy. Sure the parts on true clones should be interchangeable but are they of the same quality? How about the steel that went into the Spanish or Argentine or Brazilian or Philippine knockoffs?

Not trying to knock anyone's AR, we're all free to choose what we want and it's not right to disparage anyone else's choice. And to the OP... there are many fine choices and we don't want to scare you off. But a little research will benefit you greatly when making your final decision.
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:26 PM   #26
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HP and MPI tested, high quality extractor/spring with black insert, chrome lined M16 carrier with a properly staked gas key.
Can you please explain to us IN YOUR OWN WORDS WITHOUT A REGURGATATED LINK the true meaning of what you just said? What does a HP and a MPI test consist of, and how exactly is it done? And just what does it prove? I can hit a gas key with a punch and a hammer, is that "properly staked". If not exactly what is? And please explain, again in your own words without a regurgitated link, how a MPI test is accomplished, and what it guarantees? Thank you, Bill T.
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:05 PM   #27
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Can you please explain to us IN YOUR OWN WORDS WITHOUT A REGURGATATED LINK the true meaning of what you just said? What does a HP and a MPI test consist of, and how exactly is it done? And just what does it prove? I can hit a gas key with a punch and a hammer, is that "properly staked". If not exactly what is? And please explain, again in your own words without a regurgitated link, how a MPI test is accomplished, and what it guarantees? Thank you, Bill T.
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I agree with what mjkeat, MrMilspecer and others have said which is summarized quite well above. It doesn't cost that much more to buy/build an AR with milspec components over something off the shelf that has untested parts or is of unknown quality. Even though AR parts tend to be interchangeable that doesn't mean they're of the same quality. Our military figured that out long ago and that's why they set military specifications and demand them of their contractors.

A lot of people laugh at milspec standards as being too low and out of date with contracts awarded to the low bidder but still the bar is set higher than many rifles out there with unproven components could attain. Sure an AR sold to a civilian, not the military, doesn't have to be milspec but I want mine to be.

For longevity it's particularly important for high stress components like the bolt (and carrier) to meet military specs: shot peened, Carpenter 158 steel, HP and MPI tested, high quality extractor/spring with black insert, chrome lined M16 carrier with a properly staked gas key. Many bolt carrier groups out there don't meet a single of these specs while those from Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense and others meet every one. Sure either one will drop in your AR but is it smart to save $10-15 on a $130 part that is so critical to reliability and long life? A similar argument can be applied to the steel that goes into the barrel.

This argument can be extended to another long time military firearm, the 1911. There a dozens of clones out there and you have to decide on the quality of the one you want to buy. Sure the parts on true clones should be interchangeable but are they of the same quality? How about the steel that went into the Spanish or Argentine or Brazilian or Philippine knockoffs?

Not trying to knock anyone's AR, we're all free to choose what we want and it's not right to disparage anyone else's choice. And to the OP... there are many fine choices and we don't want to scare you off. But a little research will benefit you greatly when making your final decision.
Bill, I can assure you what I write is in my own words. If you want a "regurgitated link" please look elsewhere.

As far as explaining high pressure or proof testing, it is exactly what it sounds like. High pressure rounds are fired to test the barrel and bolt. Then a magnetic particle inspection is done to look for defects, cracks, etc. I understand the basic process but since I don't do that kind of testing and it is quite involved I have no idea how the testing is set up and performed and under what conditions. I doubt that many of us do.

But performing the testing under the proper conditions is important to our military so it is important to me and many others looking for a high quality AR. I want my bolt carrier group to meet military specifications and am willing to pay the extra $15-20 to get it. Are you saying you are not? Your choice of course, just as it is for all of us.

Of course high pressure testing is nothing new, 100+ year old firearms were proof tested, heck my 1913 Luger was and has the proof marks stamped on the barrel. Guess 100 years ago the German military didn't like barrels to blow up on them either.

As far as proper staking to US military specifications, well it's obvious the intent is that the carrier screws (or even castle nut) don't loosen and compromise the reliability of the rifle. Light staking may allow loosening over time and use. You want metal pushed over the screws so there's no doubt they won't come loose. And before the staking you must use screws of proper hardness which are torqued properly.

Did I regurgitate or plagiarize?
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:14 PM   #28
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Tacticalarms, I'm sorry your first post has gotten derailed a bit. Please let us get it back on topic and I'm sure if you give us a chance you'll find we're pretty much a friendly helpful group. A little bickering now and then but we're still family!

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Old 12-23-2010, 11:50 PM   #29
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Tacticalarms, I'm sorry your first post has gotten derailed a bit. Please let us get it back on topic and I'm sure if you give us a chance you'll find we're pretty much a friendly helpful group. A little bickering now and then but we're still family!
No need for an apology and I definitely appreciate the passion and the knowledge some of you folks have about rifles. I'm certainly mechanically inclined and very tempted to build my own, however as another member mentioned, i figured my first rifle should be off the shelf until i get more familiar with the parts and their functions. As far building my own, i'm not by any means intimated by it, however i don't even know where to begin. I also think since the "great" state of NJ has many restrictions and limitations that i may not even be aware of, I will be better buying, at least, the first one off the shelf. Some of you gentlemen may disagree and I totally understand that, but we'll see what happens.

Thank you!!
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:54 PM   #30
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Not to over-simplify things but didn't you answer this question in your question?

"...however since I don't have the time, nor the knowledge, I'm just going to purchase one."

Ergo; "...just walk in the local gun shop and purchase the A3..."!



B

No, my question pertained to whether i should just walk in local gun shop and buy a Bushmaster or wait a few months and order the RRA.
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