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Old 12-23-2010, 01:50 PM   #11
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Well I'm going to stick with the manufacturers that have a provin track record. I'm not going to risk purchasing a rifle from a company known for not putting together a rifle properly and using out of spec parts. Not to mention suspect customer service which I consider a major part of the buying experience. Like I said, my piece of mind is not worth a fist full of change.

Why did we spend a crap ton of money on our LWRCs instead of slapping on a piston conversion kit? Because we recognize the engineering that goes into a good system.


To the OP. Spend a tiny bit more and you wont be disappointed.

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Old 12-23-2010, 02:14 PM   #12
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Well I'm going to stick with the manufacturers that have a provin track record. I'm not going to risk purchasing a rifle from a company known for not putting together a rifle properly and using out of spec parts. Not to mention suspect customer service which I consider a major part of the buying experience. Like I said, my piece of mind is not worth a fist full of change.

Why did we spend a crap ton of money on our LWRCs instead of slapping on a piston conversion kit? Because we recognize the engineering that goes into a good system.


To the OP. Spend a tiny bit more and you wont be disappointed.
what engineering?? its all milspec. all the engineering that went into a 5.56/223 lower happened some 40-50 years ago by a guy named eugene stoner. punch the right equations into the CnC machine denoting a milspec lower and out pops a mil-spec lower. the lwrc is no better or worse a lower than any other lower out there. im pretty certain they arent making em by hand. it is the quality of the barrel itself and the internal trigger group that will denote just how well the beastie will shoot. in a ar the lower and upper are pretty cosmetic as long as they fit together.

the real diff in lowers is the takedown pins. some lowers can have large or small pins older colts have one large and one small. other than that they is no real difference other than the finish applied to the bare aluminum.

take a sample of each lower before it is marked and before a finish is apllied and shake em up in a bag and i would bet you wouldnt be able to match the lower to the maker.
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:16 PM   #13
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I own only one bushy, and I'm content with it since I've accepted its limitations. But my CMMG rifles and my DPMS rifle all run better for longer. That is what I'm basing my opinion on, not what some guy in his mom's basement posted over on arfcom.

I also don't care for the business practices of bushmaster's parent company (Cerberus, who also owns DPMS), buying up smaller companies and keeping what they want/need from that company and ditching the rest just hits too close to home for me. But that is my personal opinion and not based in any way on the quality of the products they produce. And this isn't the place for that discussion anyway.

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Old 12-23-2010, 02:29 PM   #14
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what engineering?? its all milspec. all the engineering that went into a 5.56/223 lower happened some 40-50 years ago by a guy named eugene stoner. punch the right equations into the CnC machine denoting a milspec lower and out pops a mil-spec lower. the lwrc is no better or worse a lower than any other lower out there. im pretty certain they arent making em by hand. it is the quality of the barrel itself and the internal trigger group that will denote just how well the beastie will shoot. in a ar the lower and upper are pretty cosmetic as long as they fit together.

the real diff in lowers is the takedown pins. some lowers can have large or small pins older colts have one large and one small. other than that they is no real difference other than the finish applied to the bare aluminum.

take a sample of each lower before it is marked and before a finish is apllied and shake em up in a bag and i would bet you wouldnt be able to match the lower to the maker.
+1.

Every AR-15 lower, bolt, bolt carrier, firing pin, extractor, and most every other part are all built to the same blueprint. Little if anything has changed since Stoner first drew it up when he was working at Fairchild Aircraft in the 50's.

There are only a very few companies supplying lower forgings to all of the major manufacturers anyway. And there is little, if any difference from those and the ones made from a billet block. An AR-15 lower isn't going to be stressed like a racing piston. Far too much is read into what these manufacturers produce, or what people think they are producing.

It's much the same with these guys that put $400.00 of aftermarket parts into a Glock. Do they wind up with any better of a gun? I can understand customizing for the sake of adding a personal touch to your weapon. That is fine. It's when I start hearing all of this "better" being thrown around that I start to really wonder. I can honestly say that the only problems I've ever seen concerning Glock pistols is with reloaded ammunition, or else with high priced aftermarket parts. Bill T.
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:39 PM   #15
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Why did we spend a crap ton of money on our LWRCs instead of slapping on a piston conversion kit? Because we recognize the engineering that goes into a good system.
Now you are talking about a completely different gun. Gas piston operated AR-15 rifles all fall into completely different design parameters. Parts off a LWRC gas system will not interchange with a LMT gas system. Both are completely different designs.

Here is where gas piston AR-15's are completely separate from direct impingement weapons like Colt, Stag Arms, and all the rest. The gas piston AR's are popular. This means a lot of manufacturers see $$$$, and as a result there are a lot of Mickey Mouse conversions out there that look as if they were designed by Rube Goldberg. This is not the case with manufactures producing D.I. weapons per Stoners original Mil-Spec design.

There are some very good gas piston AR-15's out there, and there are some real abortions. This is because of they way they were designed, unlike the direct impingement weapons which are all produced with the same design. Bill T.
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:49 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by russ View Post
I own only one bushy, and I'm content with it since I've accepted its limitations. But my CMMG rifles and my DPMS rifle all run better for longer. That is what I'm basing my opinion on, not what some guy in his mom's basement posted over on arfcom.
Please elaborate. How, and in what way is your Bushmaster "limited"? How will your DPMS and CMMG "run better for longer"? Bill T.
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Old 12-23-2010, 03:44 PM   #17
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Another thing you are seeing more and more of, are these trainers / gurus who are lending their name to a given brand of AR-15 for the highest buck. There is nothing wrong with this practice mind you, but what then happens is you'll have every mall ninja out there who regurgitates every word out of their favorite trainer, start dumping undeserved praise on whatever brand they happen to be paid to endorse, simply because it's "their guy" giving the endorsement.

The best, most recent example I can give you is Larry Vickers signing on with Daniel Defense. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Mr. Vickers, or Daniel Defense and the weapons they produce. With that said D.D. isn't making any better of a weapon now, than they did before Mr. Vickers became their paid spokesperson. The only difference is now more are carrying on how D.D. is the greatest thing to come along since Monday Night Football and 3 men in the booth, just because Vickers signed on their dotted line.

He also had no problem bashing Glock when he was on H&K's payroll. (I don't know if he currently is or not). Point being is these guys got a big following with the mall ninja crowd, and many will fall lock step into place with whatever these guys say, no matter if they're paid to say it or not.

This is where the truth stops, and a lot of the B.S. gets started. Is a frying pan going to cook your food any better or faster if Rachael Ray or Paula Deen endorse it? Companies employ these well known individuals because their name alone can sell products. If some football fan is in love with Brett Favre, and worships the sod stuck to his cleats, they'll buy whatever brand of deodorant he uses, or brand of underwear he wears. That in itself doesn't make the product any better. The mall ninja's do much the same with AR-15's. That is a fact, and it creates a lot of B.S. in the process. Bill T.
Having Larry Vickers support your product is smart advertising. He is well respected in the firearms world.
Getting upset because someone would recomend a Daniel Defense over a Bushmaster makes no sense to me. I look at it like i get a lot of extras for free.
Lower Receiver: Mil-Spec with Enhanced Flared Magazine Well
Upper Receiver: Mil-Spec with Indexing Marks and M4 Feed Ramps
Barrel: Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel, Cold Hammer Forged, 1:7 twist, 16″ M4 Profile, Carbine Gas System, Chrome Lined, MP tested, and Mil-Spec Heavy Phosphate coated
Chamber: 5.56 NATO
Flash Hider: A2 Birdcage Flash Hider
Bolt Carrier Group: Mil-Spec MP Tested, Properly Staked Gas Key
Buffer: H Buffer
Gas Block: Daniel Defense Pinned Low Profile Gas Block
Handguard: Daniel Defense Omega X Rail 9.0
Buttstock: MAGPUL MOE Buttstock & Mil-Spec 6 Position
Receiver Extension
Magazine: MAGPUL 30 round PMag in Black
Vertical Grip: Daniel Defense A2 Styling Vertical Grip
Rail Cover: (3) Daniel Defense low profile rail ladders
Case: Comes with Custom Daniel Defense Full-Latch Impact Plastic Case
Weight(no sights): 6lb 7.7oz
Made in the USA!
These are the specs off the one I own. While specs. may seem worthless to you I will take the extras for free or even pay a little more. DD makes thier own barrels, uppers, lowers, rails and more in house. They have a great rep to go along with the specs. Things like the exellent rail, barrel, sights, weight, testing, and price sold me. Its nice you love your Bushmasters and they work for you. But I read on this site about a guy with a carbon bushmaster that cracked and got jacked around by Bushmaster for 7 months. Stories of poor customer service alone leave them off my list.
I dont understand why people get upset over the words like milspec or the chart. If I want to have a Barrel thats tested with an overcharged load then magnetic partical tested thats my choice. I reload and like that idea. If I want chrome lined like the military for durability and ease of clean-up again my choice.Theres a little more to milspec than a hole dimension. I could go on and on about why I made my choice but its just my opinion and the fact that MILSPEC has been battle tested for almost 50 years. I am not bashing Bushmaster and am in fact helping a friend to get a $499 Del-Ton kit. We will have fun shooting no matter the Price or Specs.
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:22 PM   #18
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what engineering?? its all milspec. all the engineering that went into a 5.56/223 lower happened some 40-50 years ago by a guy named eugene stoner. punch the right equations into the CnC machine denoting a milspec lower and out pops a mil-spec lower. the lwrc is no better or worse a lower than any other lower out there. im pretty certain they arent making em by hand. it is the quality of the barrel itself and the internal trigger group that will denote just how well the beastie will shoot. in a ar the lower and upper are pretty cosmetic as long as they fit together.

the real diff in lowers is the takedown pins. some lowers can have large or small pins older colts have one large and one small. other than that they is no real difference other than the finish applied to the bare aluminum.

take a sample of each lower before it is marked and before a finish is apllied and shake em up in a bag and i would bet you wouldnt be able to match the lower to the maker.
I believe we were talking about rifles not lower recievers.

There is a lot of engeneering that went into the making of a LWRC rifle. Its a true factory piston gun. Not a piston after thought gun.

A lot more than a barrel and trigger goes into a top shelf AR. For instance your BCG is probably the heart of the entire system.

There are more differences in lowers than takedown pins. For one some companies, such as KAC, manufacture "TRUE" ambidestrous lowers. Besides that not all lowers are created equally.


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+1.

Every AR-15 lower, bolt, bolt carrier, firing pin, extractor, and most every other part are all built to the same blueprint. Little if anything has changed since Stoner first drew it up when he was working at Fairchild Aircraft in the 50's.

There are only a very few companies supplying lower forgings to all of the major manufacturers anyway. And there is little, if any difference from those and the ones made from a billet block. An AR-15 lower isn't going to be stressed like a racing piston. Far too much is read into what these manufacturers produce, or what people think they are producing.

It's much the same with these guys that put $400.00 of aftermarket parts into a Glock. Do they wind up with any better of a gun? I can understand customizing for the sake of adding a personal touch to your weapon. That is fine. It's when I start hearing all of this "better" being thrown around that I start to really wonder. I can honestly say that the only problems I've ever seen concerning Glock pistols is with reloaded ammunition, or else with high priced aftermarket parts. Bill T.
Yes but are they all using the same materials and quality control? Those documents are a guide.

Im still going to stick w/ companies known for getting it right the first time. I dont want to fix a manufacturing mistake.
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:23 PM   #19
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Having Larry Vickers support your product is smart advertising. He is well respected in the firearms world.
Getting upset because someone would recomend a Daniel Defense over a Bushmaster makes no sense to me. I look at it like i get a lot of extras for free.
Lower Receiver: Mil-Spec with Enhanced Flared Magazine Well
Upper Receiver: Mil-Spec with Indexing Marks and M4 Feed Ramps
Barrel: Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel, Cold Hammer Forged, 1:7 twist, 16″ M4 Profile, Carbine Gas System, Chrome Lined, MP tested, and Mil-Spec Heavy Phosphate coated
Chamber: 5.56 NATO
Flash Hider: A2 Birdcage Flash Hider
Bolt Carrier Group: Mil-Spec MP Tested, Properly Staked Gas Key
Buffer: H Buffer
Gas Block: Daniel Defense Pinned Low Profile Gas Block
Handguard: Daniel Defense Omega X Rail 9.0
Buttstock: MAGPUL MOE Buttstock & Mil-Spec 6 Position
Receiver Extension
Magazine: MAGPUL 30 round PMag in Black
Vertical Grip: Daniel Defense A2 Styling Vertical Grip
Rail Cover: (3) Daniel Defense low profile rail ladders
Case: Comes with Custom Daniel Defense Full-Latch Impact Plastic Case
Weight(no sights): 6lb 7.7oz
Made in the USA!
These are the specs off the one I own. While specs. may seem worthless to you I will take the extras for free or even pay a little more. DD makes thier own barrels, uppers, lowers, rails and more in house. They have a great rep to go along with the specs. Things like the exellent rail, barrel, sights, weight, testing, and price sold me. Its nice you love your Bushmasters and they work for you. But I read on this site about a guy with a carbon bushmaster that cracked and got jacked around by Bushmaster for 7 months. Stories of poor customer service alone leave them off my list.
I dont understand why people get upset over the words like milspec or the chart. If I want to have a Barrel thats tested with an overcharged load then magnetic partical tested thats my choice. I reload and like that idea. If I want chrome lined like the military for durability and ease of clean-up again my choice.Theres a little more to milspec than a hole dimension. I could go on and on about why I made my choice but its just my opinion and the fact that MILSPEC has been battle tested for almost 50 years. I am not bashing Bushmaster and am in fact helping a friend to get a $499 Del-Ton kit. We will have fun shooting no matter the Price or Specs.
Well said.
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:29 PM   #20
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Not to over-simplify things but didn't you answer this question in your question?

"...however since I don't have the time, nor the knowledge, I'm just going to purchase one."

Ergo; "...just walk in the local gun shop and purchase the A3..."!



BUT, on the other side of the pillow;

My suggestion IMHO, would be to buy the RRA complete upper and build a personalized lower. You know you're going to customize any shelf purchase so why spend money on items you will wind up removing?

Not to be blunt but, "...nor the knowledge,..." is not something to use as an excuse to buy something you don't have knowledge of, you need to know your weapon! Assembling a lower is a giant step towards AR knowledge, and besides, you have us to help you step by step.

Nut Up and just do it!
Quoted for truth...when I joined this forum I didn't know an AR from an RV but with the help of the members here I was able to sort it out and build my AR. Not as difficult as you think and, in my opinion, much more rewarding than buying a complete rifle off-the-shelf.
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