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Old 11-30-2012, 08:02 PM   #21
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I am responding to this with the experience of almost 30 years as a LEO in Cal. If you think you have the authority to shoot any time you have the legal grounds to pull the pistol, you are very wrong, and advise like this will get you sent to prison in Cal under many circumstances.

As an example, if you are confronted with a bad guy approaching with a knife extended, 40 feet away from, you may legally draw your weapon to defend yourself. If the suspect immediately lays on the ground crying, you ARE NOT justified in shooting that person. This of course is an extreme example, but the legal premise holds true. I legally pulled my weapon from it's holster hundreds of times when I was not justified, legally or morally, in shooting with the info I had at the time!

This training you allude to may have been the case at one time, but I started my PO training in 1978, and what I have expressed here has not changed significantly since then in Cal.

In addition, if you ever do shoot someone, which I hope you never have to do, you were shooting to stop the threat, NOT TO KILL! This is what you better say to the cops and the judge!
You never shoot to kill or to wound. You shoot to terminate agressive behavior that places your life, or another innocent person in danger.

As a 20+ year LEO, I drew my weapon many times and didn't fire. A regular citizen, however, doesn't have as much latitude as an officer.

In most cases he'd better have very strong justification before even drawing the weapon.

In your example of a man with a knife, at 40 feet you would be correct. At 25 feet or less, I was trained to commence firing immediately. An individual with an edged weapon can kill you if he gets within 25 feet, even if you put a round through his heart.
only a CNS shot can stop him in time, and they're hard to come by under stress.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:04 PM   #22
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Same reason we had a 3-burst selection on our M-16's

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Old 11-30-2012, 08:28 PM   #23
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Probably should've titled this differently. By "Why Double Tap?" I was specifically refering to the inconsistancy of the M855 round to fragment at close range according to the study. Most of the time it will, but sometimes it will go clean through a target. Thus it's always a good idea to double tap, AT LEAST. Didn't mean to suggest you shouldn't have to double tap or anything.

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Old 11-30-2012, 08:34 PM   #24
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Probably should've titled this differently. By "Why Double Tap?" I was specifically refering to the inconsistancy of the M855 round to fragment at close range according to the study. Most of the time it will, but sometimes it will go clean through a target. Thus it's always a good idea to double tap, AT LEAST. Didn't mean to suggest you shouldn't have to double tap or anything.
No matter- Most threads go left after the 2nd page anyway
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpapps
2ndfan,

I'm not about to disagree. But the Missouri Laws at the time were that way. I remember Sheriff Mickey Owen saying one time that in Greene County, you don't have to prove your not guilty of murder, all you have to do is prove the SOB needed to be killed. Google him, he was a nice man. Never got to work for him, it would have been interesting, him and Buff Lamb
After I left the COP shop, I worked for and retired from an agency that demanded the use of deadly force for a list of property crimes! Look this one up under 10CFR and the Atomic Energy Act of 1952 as amended. Oh, their standard was two center mass and one to the head. I ended up with a glock
Still don't like them, the glocks.

You wouldn't happen to have a degree in sociology or something like that?
Didn't mean to offend, I was trying to clarify your points as they apply to another area of the country. If we lived by those rules in The Republic of Cal we'd be in jail, wish I was in Missouri sometimes! Things are very different out here!

And I know the rules are way different in nuclear facilities!
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:46 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locutus

You never shoot to kill or to wound. You shoot to terminate agressive behavior that places your life, or another innocent person in danger.

As a 20+ year LEO, I drew my weapon many times and didn't fire. A regular citizen, however, doesn't have as much latitude as an officer.

In most cases he'd better have very strong justification before even drawing the weapon.

In your example of a man with a knife, at 40 feet you would be correct. At 25 feet or less, I was trained to commence firing immediately. An individual with an edged weapon can kill you if he gets within 25 feet, even if you put a round through his heart.
only a CNS shot can stop him in time, and they're hard to come by under stress.
Absolutely agree with the distances, that's why I used 40 feet..at 30 feet you probably know what a skilled knife fighter can do and I'd shoot him, to stop the threat! The edged weapon training I received was eye opening!
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:47 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOSSFLY

No matter- Most threads go left after the 2nd page anyway
True that!
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:35 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by oldpapps View Post
2ndfan,

I'm not about to disagree. But the Missouri Laws at the time were that way. I remember Sheriff Mickey Owen saying one time that in Greene County, you don't have to prove your not guilty of murder, all you have to do is prove the SOB needed to be killed. Google him, he was a nice man. Never got to work for him, it would have been interesting, him and Buff Lamb
After I left the COP shop, I worked for and retired from an agency that demanded the use of deadly force for a list of property crimes! Look this one up under 10CFR and the Atomic Energy Act of 1952 as amended. Oh, their standard was two center mass and one to the head. I ended up with a glock
Still don't like them, the glocks.

You wouldn't happen to have a degree in sociology or something like that?
If you know major league baseball then you know Mickey Owen!....
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:48 PM   #29
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A lot of people mentioned hollow points being more effective. I haven't shot enough hollow points in a 5.56 to have an opinion. But I have shot a bunch in a 7.62x39. In a 7.62x39 accuracy dropped off so badly with hollow points that I never used a hollow point to hunt. Regular soft point ammo made the SKS just as accurate as a Marlin model 60. I always figured a well placed bullet of any kind was better than expansion. A fact the report pointed out.

One thing about multiple shots fired very quickly is they tend to hit in the same place and follow the same wound channel. Even with larger calibers such as a 30/06. It could be that the deer slowed so much after the first hit the rest were like shooting a static target. When I skinned the deer most of the time after multiple shots there was like a clover leaf at the entrance wound. The bullets all hit that close together. I know deer don't shoot back but with someone shooting back I would just be on the trigger even more unless I was forced to save ammo. I am sure soldiers with the same training I received would hit a target with at least the same accuracy. I am sure many of them would do much better.

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Old 11-30-2012, 10:26 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by 2ndfan View Post
Absolutely agree with the distances, that's why I used 40 feet..at 30 feet you probably know what a skilled knife fighter can do and I'd shoot him, to stop the threat! The edged weapon training I received was eye opening!
It doesn’t really require a "skilled knife fighter “to be lethal. A man focused on doing harm is just as lethal if not more so.

Here's a bad video it shows how poorly trained these Nicaraguan officers were. How a determined bad guy can be a formidable knife wielder.

The video is not a "cartel type" of violent video, but it does show the attack on the national officers. It does bring home the message of Panic, poor training, and freezing up when a knife is swinging at you.

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshh44oh9wTL1t11XJKD
My only advice is stay true to your training, don’t question yourself on drawing your duty pistol. Remember space and obstacles are your friends in stand offs. And never second guess your internal message to shoot ..Your subconscious mind will not let you down.

As Locatus pointed out...."
An individual with an edged weapon can kill you if he gets within 25 feet, even if you put a round through his heart.
only a CNS shot can stop him in time, and they're hard to come by under stress. "

My experience models the same as his, you can see the "bad guy" take several hits and is still tickin' adrenal push is also fueling him.. And if he's been ingesting any cocoa plant etc.
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Last edited by Steel_Talon; 11-30-2012 at 10:35 PM. Reason: Added thought to thread
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