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Old 05-18-2012, 12:21 PM   #21
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I always thought the 25 yard zero gave you a "perfect" sight picture at 200 yards, which is the base setting on the rear sight. you could then adjust the range on the rear sight to compensate for longer distances than 200?

of course, that goes out the window if you're not using a "stock" AR platform, and have a flat top with optics or different sights.

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Old 05-18-2012, 02:07 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by 70cuda383 View Post
I always thought the 25 yard zero gave you a "perfect" sight picture at 200 yards, which is the base setting on the rear sight. you could then adjust the range on the rear sight to compensate for longer distances than 200?

of course, that goes out the window if you're not using a "stock" AR platform, and have a flat top with optics or different sights.
27 yards plus 1 foot is the minimun distance the bullet needs to travel before its completely stabalized. trying to zero below that distance would be less accurate at longer ranges. as far as why we used 36 yards. im not 100% positive. i just know it worked. after being zerod you could make elevation adjustments as you say by turning the rear sight. 3= 300, 4=400, 5=500
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Old 05-18-2012, 02:33 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by frostyone View Post
I like this image. Would you happen to have 1 for a 50 yard zero?

I'm currently zero'd at 25 but am not completely set on it. I gonna try out a 50 yard and see how I like that.
Yes I do, but the 50 yard zero utilizes the flat trajectory premise, which after 200 yards means the shooter must aim over the target (hold over) to "drop" projectiles into the target. The image I made isnt anything more than point of aim = point of impact out to 200 yards, with variation for skill and MOA error.
There is no way to draw an accurate hold over drop as there is in drawing an accurate hold under drop by using the human body and your sized dot as referance points. with the 25 yard zero, I know from 50 yards to 375 yards my impact will be directly above or right on center mass if I am for the chest of a man sized target. With a 4MOA dot its a "figure -8" or a "zero" At the largest spread of about 10"MOA error, my dot size is 8" wide, thereforethe maxium point of impact distance will be about the size of the dot above the dot..a figure 8. At best the POI will = the POA (point of aim.)

On a 50 yard zero point of aim = point of impact...all "zeros" out to 200 yards. Then the trajectory quickly drops off. In order to hit a target at that longer range...say 350 yards, you must aim over the target and judge for yourself how high.
Here's a couple charts. I didnt make the balistic comparison chart, that is a common chart. I did make the 25 vs 50 yard charts by altering other training aids I found on the net.


and here is where you can judge your 50 yard zero drop. Please remember your "target" decreases in size the farther away it is...so you must account for that when deciding what zero to use. You can see with a 50 yard zero your hold over on a man sized target is 23"...that nearly 2 feet. Thats real hard to judge. Now thing of a target behind cover 400 yards away!!!! that 50 yard zero isnt going to work as well as a poi=poa zero... or a magnified optic.


I can safely say two guys 400 yards apart with the same AR15s start shooting at each other, skill sets being the same, the guy with the 25 yard zero will be pinning down the guy with the 50 yard zero...easy. Its still POA=POI for him while the 50 yard guy needs to hold over and guess. Now upclose and personal at 100 or 200 yards the 50 yard zero has a slight advantage of poi=poa.

Its your choice what to use. each has its own good and bad points
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by jjfuller1

well, sort of. you are correct that we used 36/300 zeros..we sighted in at 36 yards. but for shooting, the closest qualification target is 200 yards. goes 200, 300, 500. we did other training with shorter distances, however we always used the same zero... incorrect on holdover. we learn to make sight adjustments
Im talking about shooting where a person doesn't have time to make adjustments to there sighting system and has to rely on hold over. From the examples of 25, 50, 100, 200, and 300 yard zeros the 300 had the smallest spread from 25-400 yards. I believe it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 inches. Meaning the round struck at nearly the same point at all those distances by simply holding the reticle in the same spot for each distance. It's basically point and shoot out to 300 or 400 yards. No thought involved.
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:23 PM   #25
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I can safely say two guys 400 yards apart with the same AR15s start shooting at each other, skill sets being the same, the guy with the 25 yard zero will be pinning down the guy with the 50 yard zero...easy. Its still POA=POI for him while the 50 yard guy needs to hold over and guess. Now upclose and personal at 100 or 200 yards the 50 yard zero has a slight advantage of poi=poa.

Its your choice what to use. each has its own good and bad points
Good chart I like it , all my rifles have a specific purpose as far as distance including my bolt gun with a 200 yard zero , its all mil dots and I have specs for each 1/3 of the dots now I need to buy one of these to write them all on so it makes it easier to remember
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:51 PM   #26
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Where do you get all your cool little toys? (charts)

You got me rethinking the 25 yard battle zero. I just didn't like the +10" at 200yards.

I do like shooting at steel at ASR 300 and 400 yards tho, kinda fun.

Hey Fixer do you have any charts showing off the effects of shooting and an angles either upwards or downwards? like all the steel targets at ASR?

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Old 05-18-2012, 05:11 PM   #27
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interesting! I've always done the 25 yard zero, and thought that at 200 yards, POI was POA. but that chart shows that it's close to 10" high!?

is the difference in the barrel length? I just now noticed the 14.5" barrel length. on a 20" barrel, is it 25 yard zero gves you POA=POI at 200 yards?
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:09 PM   #28
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Well after looking at and studying this chart , I think I need to get back out to the range for a few changes and see how well it really works for the application im expecting . I dont have alot of scope power on my AR as I really dont need it and dont hink I will ever shoot it much past 300 ever . I get the bigger guns out for that distance , or my fav .223 bolt gun for that long distance . its always fun to hear the ringing metal from a FMJ slapping it around

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Old 05-18-2012, 06:44 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer

Yes I do, but the 50 yard zero utilizes the flat trajectory premise, which after 200 yards means the shooter must aim over the target (hold over) to "drop" projectiles into the target. The image I made isnt anything more than point of aim = point of impact out to 200 yards, with variation for skill and MOA error.
There is no way to draw an accurate hold over drop as there is in drawing an accurate hold under drop by using the human body and your sized dot as referance points. with the 25 yard zero, I know from 50 yards to 375 yards my impact will be directly above or right on center mass if I am for the chest of a man sized target. With a 4MOA dot its a "figure -8" or a "zero" At the largest spread of about 10"MOA error, my dot size is 8" wide, thereforethe maxium point of impact distance will be about the size of the dot above the dot..a figure 8. At best the POI will = the POA (point of aim.)

On a 50 yard zero point of aim = point of impact...all "zeros" out to 200 yards. Then the trajectory quickly drops off. In order to hit a target at that longer range...say 350 yards, you must aim over the target and judge for yourself how high.
Here's a couple charts. I didnt make the balistic comparison chart, that is a common chart. I did make the 25 vs 50 yard charts by altering other training aids I found on the net.

and here is where you can judge your 50 yard zero drop. Please remember your "target" decreases in size the farther away it is...so you must account for that when deciding what zero to use. You can see with a 50 yard zero your hold over on a man sized target is 23"...that nearly 2 feet. Thats real hard to judge. Now thing of a target behind cover 400 yards away!!!! that 50 yard zero isnt going to work as well as a poi=poa zero... or a magnified optic.

I can safely say two guys 400 yards apart with the same AR15s start shooting at each other, skill sets being the same, the guy with the 25 yard zero will be pinning down the guy with the 50 yard zero...easy. Its still POA=POI for him while the 50 yard guy needs to hold over and guess. Now upclose and personal at 100 or 200 yards the 50 yard zero has a slight advantage of poi=poa.

Its your choice what to use. each has its own good and bad points
I greatly appreciate the work you put into posting this. I'm now really rethinking which zero I want to maintain. I mostly shoot up close but also like the ability to reach out to 300 on occasion which has worked so far with my current 25 yard zero. Your post helps make better sense why it works the way it does.

I need to get out and shoot more before deciding which zero. Again thank you.
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Old 05-19-2012, 05:00 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by AgentTikki View Post
Where do you get all your cool little toys? (charts)

You got me rethinking the 25 yard battle zero. I just didn't like the +10" at 200yards.

I do like shooting at steel at ASR 300 and 400 yards tho, kinda fun.

Hey Fixer do you have any charts showing off the effects of shooting and an angles either upwards or downwards? like all the steel targets at ASR?
Just years of teaching. If I needed a chart, I made it. That drop comparison isnt mine. Its a common chart you find on the net.

FYI on length of barrel. I think AgentTikki has a better grasp of that than I.
The longer the barrel, the more energy is used. Thats where the 20" gets a few more FPS. I think its 150FSP per inch and 75 more yards per inch of barrel. I am not a match shooter or a precision guy. I shoot minute of barn and am happy to do so.

On shooting against mean ole Mr Gravity. No, I was never taught that aspect so I can't offer any advice. There is a ratio and a formula..I just dont have it stored in my memory bank...
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