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wal-mart AR is interesting to me


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Old 03-12-2012, 03:43 AM   #11
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the one your looking at probbly has a polymer lower. stay away from those. no one has figured out how to make polymer durable or strong enough for a AR15 lower. problems include splitting at the buffer tube ring. flexing and pin holes widening out.

my wife has a dpms panther m4 clone. not much if anything was properly torqued. as a range rifle they are fine so long as you dont expect it to be as durable or perform like a larue or bcm.
thanks, good info.
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Old 03-14-2012, 02:20 AM   #12
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the one your looking at probbly has a polymer lower. stay away from those. no one has figured out how to make polymer durable or strong enough for a AR15 lower. problems include splitting at the buffer tube ring. flexing and pin holes widening out.

my wife has a dpms panther m4 clone. not much if anything was properly torqued. as a range rifle they are fine so long as you dont expect it to be as durable or perform like a larue or bcm.
got a better look at it today and handled it a bit. it definately isn't a polymer lower as far as i could tell.

i think this is it.

http://www.ar15-rifles.com/category/DPMS-A-15-163

thoughts? worth $580?.....seems like a decent deal. but i know almost nothing about AR's.

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Old 03-14-2012, 09:01 AM   #13
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It's not worth buying a cheap pre-assembled AR in today's market, plain and simple. For the cost of an inferior product (I'm not saying its a bad gun, buy you can probably bet on it not being HP/MP tested, probably lower grade steel, probably not chrome lined) you can assemble one yourself that is MUCH higher quality.

I realize you said you aren't big in to ARs, so I'll also assume the maximum assembly you would want to do is slapping a complete upper and a complete lower together and calling it a day. Even then, you can build a rifle from Palmetto State Armory for ridiculously cheap prices that has all the same specifications of a $1000 to $1400 rifle.

Seriously, you can buy a COMPLETED upper, which are the highest price parts and the parts that matter the most when it comes to reliability, lifespan, and cost, for $487 on PSA right now. Chrome lined, 1:7 twist, 4150 steel, HP/MP tested and that include their BCG, charging handle, and a Magpul handguard.

Slap a lower on that and you have a great rifle. If you can stand assembling a lower with a lower parts kit (YouTube videos out the rear) you can build a complete power for somewhere around $150. Right there is a $630ish dollar rifle that is so many times better than any low quality budget AR you could buy (DPMS Oracle, S&W sport) it hurts. The extra $50 buys you a rifle that's worth twice that DPMS your looking at.

Dont buy premade complete rifles. Buy a complete upper from PSA and take an hour to build your complete lower.... The quality difference will be so drastic that it's unbelievable that they can be had for prices so close.

Seriously.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:07 PM   #14
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Todd, I agree with you on most accounts. I believe PSA is a decent AR and a good value for the price. I just want to say although they share alot of the same specs on paper as manufactures like Daniel Defense in the $1k-$1400 range they are not quite the same. Really no fault of theirs per say. They are just getting started and demand seems high. I hear they added a couple more people on the phones but wish they would step up production. 15 days is to long to wait for an item to ship when I can get a BCM upper for a little more that ships same day and comes with a metric ton of swag.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:16 PM   #15
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Todd, I agree with you on most accounts. I believe PSA is a decent AR and a good value for the price. I just want to say although they share alot of the same specs on paper as manufactures like Daniel Defense in the $1k-$1400 range they are not quite the same. Really no fault of theirs per say. They are just getting started and demand seems high. I hear they added a couple more people on the phones but wish they would step up production. 15 days is to long to wait for an item to ship when I can get a BCM upper for a little more that ships same day and comes with a metric ton of swag.
I've definitely noticed that there are some shortages of what are recommended products out there. Found tons of companies I've never heard of, and I'm really loathe to order parts from somebody that has a website that looks like an 8th grader put it together with Paint.
Of course, some of the upper end companies have craptastic websites as well.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:27 PM   #16
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I've definitely noticed that there are some shortages of what are recommended products out there. Found tons of companies I've never heard of, and I'm really loathe to order parts from somebody that has a website that looks like an 8th grader put it together with Paint.
Of course, some of the upper end companies have craptastic websites as well.
Yep be careful.

Remember these names:
Skdtac.com
Aimsurplus.com
Dsgarms.com
Pallmettostatearmory.com
Rainierarms.com
Gandrtactical.com
Primaryarms.com
Bravocompanyusa.com

I might be missing one or 2. I have them as favorites on the laptop so I rarely have to remember them.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:29 PM   #17
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Yep be careful.

Remember these names:
Skdtac.com
Aimsurplus.com
Dsgarms.com
Pallmettostatearmory.com
Rainierarms.com
Gandrtactical.com
Primaryarms.com
Bravocompanyusa.com

I might be missing one or 2. I have them as favorites on the laptop so I rarely have to remember them.
Been hearing nothing but praise for spikes, too. (And, once again, you give me a list to stick in my drawer!!)
My next question for you? Should I just build my upper or order a complete one?
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:47 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by mjkeat
Todd, I agree with you on most accounts. I believe PSA is a decent AR and a good value for the price. I just want to say although they share alot of the same specs on paper as manufactures like Daniel Defense in the $1k-$1400 range they are not quite the same. Really no fault of theirs per say. They are just getting started and demand seems high. I hear they added a couple more people on the phones but wish they would step up production. 15 days is to long to wait for an item to ship when I can get a BCM upper for a little more that ships same day and comes with a metric ton of swag.
I would love to see some of those differences spelled out for me, and I mean that with no sarcasm. Given the specs on the rifle, the fact that the same materials were used, and is some cases machines by the same bigger company, and the quality control tests were all there (HP/MP testing) I didn't think there was anything left that could be different other than the how often a bad rifle came through, which obviously can be expected more often through spikes or PSA due to the high demand without the framework to satisfy it. I know DD rifles go through a more stringent series of human tests before they ship out, or I would imagine so, but in the end isn't it still the same product? If you take two pieces of metal, the same metal, and machine them with care to the same specs, and don't skimp on the chrome of the bore etc etc, and do the same tests on those pieces of machined metal, don't you have the same product, just one with a set of Double Ds (giggity) and one with a PSA logo?

Based on all the specs, I read they were the same material product. I know DD takes extra time, extra care, and puts out one in a million bad guns compared to one in a thousand for PSA due to the more stringent inspections to make sure the machined parts were in fact done so correctly, but I couldn't find any other differences. If there are some, some that are tangible, then I would like to know them for knowledges sake. I classify PSA and Spikes in with DD Colt and BCM because of the specs, and I have actually ground up a few people elsewhere for claiming his/her DPMS was "just as good" as someone's expensive Noveske. Obviously they aren't equal, but I can show them that on the specs with the weaker barrel steel and other tangible evidence.

I refuse to believe that because a rifle doesn't cost $1400 makes it inferior to one of the "top tier" rifles, there has to be a REASON why. Other than the name. If a product looks the same based on its materials used, walks the same based on the same testing processes ("the human element" aside, I'm talking standard testing like HP and MP), then it must be a duck.

Or at least a comparable rifle.

Now, if you rank them separately not based on the end product, but the CS and responsiveness of the phone lines.... Then yes, I agree there is a difference. I then will say the $600 price gap isn't worth having someone pick up the phone 3 minutes faster, and I haven't heard of any bad experiences with the CS there when it comes to backing up their products... Only of a guy who was really upset because they didn't sell him an item at sale price a week after the sale ended.... Which I'm on their side on that one.

So I now yield the floor, learn me something!
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:53 PM   #19
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I would love to see some of those differences spelled out for me, and I mean that with no sarcasm. Given the specs on the rifle, the fact that the same materials were used, and is some cases machines by the same bigger company, and the quality control tests were all there (HP/MP testing) I didn't think there was anything left that could be different other than the how often a bad rifle came through, which obviously can be expected more often through spikes or PSA due to the high demand without the framework to satisfy it. I know DD rifles go through a more stringent series of human tests before they ship out, or I would imagine so, but in the end isn't it still the same product? If you take two pieces of metal, the same metal, and machine them with care to the same specs, and don't skimp on the chrome of the bore etc etc, and do the same tests on those pieces of machined metal, don't you have the same product, just one with a set of Double Ds (giggity) and one with a PSA logo?

Based on all the specs, I read they were the same material product. I know DD takes extra time, extra care, and puts out one in a million bad guns compared to one in a thousand for PSA due to the more stringent inspections to make sure the machined parts were in fact done so correctly, but I couldn't find any other differences. If there are some, some that are tangible, then I would like to know them for knowledges sake. I classify PSA and Spikes in with DD Colt and BCM because of the specs, and I have actually ground up a few people elsewhere for claiming his/her DPMS was "just as good" as someone's expensive Noveske. Obviously they aren't equal, but I can show them that on the specs with the weaker barrel steel and other tangible evidence.

I refuse to believe that because a rifle doesn't cost $1400 makes it inferior to one of the "top tier" rifles, there has to be a REASON why. Other than the name. If a product looks the same based on its materials used, walks the same based on the same testing processes ("the human element" aside, I'm talking standard testing like HP and MP), then it must be a duck.

Or at least a comparable rifle.

Now, if you rank them separately not based on the end product, but the CS and responsiveness of the phone lines.... Then yes, I agree there is a difference. I then will say the $600 price gap isn't worth having someone pick up the phone 3 minutes faster, and I haven't heard of any bad experiences with the CS there when it comes to backing up their products... Only of a guy who was really upset because they didn't sell him an item at sale price a week after the sale ended.... Which I'm on their side on that one.

So I now yield the floor, learn me something!
While they may all be milspec, the biggest thing I think we have to account for is the acceptable variance from tolerance. Just because both companies build to X specs, doesn't mean both companies allow the same deviation. If Company A says you have to be within .005, and Company B says you have to be within .15, although, spec wise there is absolutely no difference, the allowable tolerances can make a significant difference.
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Old 03-14-2012, 02:13 PM   #20
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While they may all be milspec, the biggest thing I think we have to account for is the acceptable variance from tolerance. Just because both companies build to X specs, doesn't mean both companies allow the same deviation. If Company A says you have to be within .005, and Company B says you have to be within .15, although, spec wise there is absolutely no difference, the allowable tolerances can make a significant difference.
Understood, but if there were significant tolerance differences, then I would also expect to see certain brands pop up as having ore feeding issues, more FTE issues, only running on certain ammo, or more likely not being able to eat anything throw in it, etc etc. Those differences would amount to some kind of function issue eventually, and of they are so small on their differences that they DON'T, then why do they matter?

I have kept a pretty keen eye watching for issues with both PSA and Spikes for a while, noting how it is VERY rare to see a DD, Colt, or BCM with function issues shooting anything at anytime, and i have yet to be able to say that I has seen any more of those issue with PSA or Spikes..... And it's not for lack of looking and just wanting to be right so I ignore it when I do see it, it is important to me to be completely sure of my decision and know what problems I may face in the future. Maybe it will be a "time will tell" type thing, but given the lack of function related... Malfunctions.... I'm inclined to believe that the tolerance variances are so minute that they fail to affect the functioning of the rifle in all but a few extreme cases, which you see with ANY manufacturer.

If that is one of the lines, I can see it being made. That being said, I don't lend much weight to the argument due to the perceived lack of affect on the rifles function. Arguments can be made, cases for failures found on both sides. I just don't see it more on one side than the other, not yet, and I will continue to look.
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