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Old 07-10-2008, 09:49 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by shrugod View Post
so i bit the bullet, went out and bought 500 rounds of winchester brass case. i loaded up every magazine i have, cleaned the gun well, and fired every round off in less than 5 minutes.
Taking into account the delays in mag changes, that works out to about 2 rounds per second. Yow.

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my conclusion? you get what you pay for. i should have known better. if some ammo costs half of what everything else goes for, im gonna get half the fun.
Exactly. If it's available where you are, Ultramax makes commercial reloads of a few different kinds of .223 (jhp, fmj) in various weights and the cost is usually way cheaper than other brands. It's fine for plinking. They're all brass and burn reasonably clean.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:04 PM   #22
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Default good to know!

Thank you Shrugod,
I too have been having this problem, shells jamming..
I will have to check the ammo and see if they are not brass cases....

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Old 07-11-2008, 08:20 PM   #23
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I guess Wolf is still laquer-coating their ammo after all...
Glad to hear about Stag Customer service. I have found that basically all firearms manufacturers will take care of their customers - albeit, some better than others. I got the best service ever from HiPoint, the manufacturer of what has to be the cheapest guns in the world.

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Old 07-11-2008, 10:20 PM   #24
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I guess Wolf is still laquer-coating their ammo after all...
Glad to hear about Stag Customer service. I have found that basically all firearms manufacturers will take care of their customers - albeit, some better than others. I got the best service ever from HiPoint, the manufacturer of what has to be the cheapest guns in the world.

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Ammunition

"Lacquer coating
Wolf no longer manufactures ammunition with a lacquer coating on the cartridge casing due to issues concerning lacquer-coated steel cartridges becoming stuck in the chamber of a firearm after firing, with difficulty in ejecting the spent cartridge afterwards. This appears to be more of a problem with cartridges with narrowly tapering walls (e.g. .223 Remington) than those with rather steep case walls such as 7.62x39 mm cartridges or pistol ammunition.
Tests have shown that steel-cased Wolf cases do not obturate sufficiently to form a good gas seal against the chamber [1] when compared to brass-cased ammunition. As a result, when Wolf cartridges are fired, some of the combustion by-products are deposited between the case and the chamber, causing a build up of carbon that is well in excess of normal. Firing a brass case (that does expand fully) after using Wolf ammunition can result in the brass case being "glued" into the chamber by the carbon buildup. This issue has nothing to do with the lacquer coating vaporising or melting, as has mistakenly been suggested. The problem is one of carbon deposition, which creates the same end result i.e. a stuck cartridge that has jammed in the chamber. It is important to emphasise that Wolf ammunition is perfectly safe to use because it conforms to all SAAMI standards. However, it is recommended that firearms are thoroughly cleaned after using Wolf ammunition due to the increased rate of carbon build-up within the chamber. Most users are content to accept increased rates of gun cleaning in return for being able to purchase more ammunition per dollar.
Note: all ammunition currently manufactured by Wolf has polymer-coated cartridge cases and any obturation problems have been radically reduced."
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:49 AM   #25
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Wikipedia? You've got to be kidding...
I still won't use it in my AR's, but I might use it in my SKS. I'm not sure I buy into the "obturation" explanation. If insufficient case expansion (obturation) causes excessive carbon build-up on the chamber walls, why don't I see carbon build-up on my ejected cases as well? And I don't mean strictly on the neck region, as happens regularly with brass cased ammo. The case body should be covered in carbon. I have never fired anything BUT steel cased ammo in my SKS and I have never had excessively dirty chamber walls. I have used other brands of Russian steel cased ammo and never had a problem. I also find it difficult to believe that under almost 40,000 CU of pressure, steel cases don't expand to grip the chamber walls. At the moment of peak pressure, cases expand to grip the chamber walls, and then contract to allow ejection. It's this rapid expansion/chamber wall contact which prevents excessive rearward force to the bolt face. Add excessive headspace to the equation and you have a potentially lethal situation which includes hot gasses escaping into your face. Remember the law of physics that states "every action has an equal and opposite reaction"? The force exerted on the case is equal to the force exerted on the bullet. Steel may not expand as much, but I would think it must expand enough to grip the chamber walls and prevent damage and possible erosion to the chamber from repeated firing. Also, this quote makes no sense to me.


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Note: all ammunition currently manufactured by Wolf has polymer-coated cartridge cases and any obturation problems have been radically reduced."
And what does this have to do with case "obturation"? Are they suggesting that a polymeric coating somehow aids in the expansion of steel?
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Old 07-12-2008, 12:55 PM   #26
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I agree with all of the posts above! I have a Stag, I have put over 1,000 rounds through it, and some of it was Wolf. I have never had a problem with it, it has always functioned well. I do not use Wolf much, it was just one day and it was free, so i thought why not. Stag makes a great product, so contact them, and change your ammo.

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Old 07-12-2008, 02:22 PM   #27
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Wikipedia? You've got to be kidding...
I still won't use it in my AR's, but I might use it in my SKS.
feel free to use it in your sks. i use it constantly, and once every three months or so i will blow off a thousand rounds in a session. sks doesnt seem to have a problem with it at all.

i guess precision engineering needs precision accessories
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Old 07-12-2008, 05:53 PM   #28
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feel free to use it in your sks. i use it constantly, and once every three months or so i will blow off a thousand rounds in a session. sks doesnt seem to have a problem with it at all.

i guess precision engineering needs precision accessories
shrugod,

glad to hear that they took care of your problem. as to the ammunition being the cause, in your case, it seems to have been. but that is not the case with all ar's and wolf.

as i seem to have irritated some local experts with the quote from Wikipedia, let's see if these links are any better. if nothing else, maybe some will learn something from them. good shooting to you sir.

slo

http://www.razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/AR15_com_Ammo_Oracle_Mirror.htm#wolfok

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=350648

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=385295

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=382538

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=268

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=357676

note that i do not state that the authors in any of these posts are experts in their fields, but i do tend to put a bit more faith in their words that some others...
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Old 07-13-2008, 01:28 AM   #29
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shrugod,

as i seem to have irritated some local experts with the quote from Wikipedia, let's see if these links are any better. if nothing else, maybe some will learn something from them. good shooting to you sir.
I guess you're referring to me, so let me state that I am no expert on anything except what I feed my rifles. As far as Wikipedia, anyone can post on Wikipedia - and the following quote proves it:

Quote:
Note: all ammunition currently manufactured by Wolf has polymer-coated cartridge cases and any obturation problems have been radically reduced."
"Obturation" is a fancy term used to describe "expansion" of the case. What effect does a polymeric coating have on a steel case's ability to expand?
- in my day we went to the Library and researched actual books - I still do that - call me old fashioned, but I don't believe half of what I read on the internet..
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Old 07-13-2008, 01:34 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by slowryde45 View Post
shrugod,

as i seem to have irritated some local experts with the quote from Wikipedia, let's see if these links are any better. if nothing else, maybe some will learn something from them. good shooting to you sir.


note that i do not state that the authors in any of these posts are experts in their fields, but i do tend to put a bit more faith in their words that some others...
This came off the AR15.COM website that you listed:
Quote:
I bought bulk wolf military classic .223 from Cabelas. I fired two rounds and both went in the same hole. I was impressed, until I pulled the trigger again and all I heard was a click. For the first time I had a failure to feed. I racked it, fired three more and another failure to feed. So as to rule out a bad magazine, i used a brand new magazine from Bushmaster with the new type follower. I fired three rounds, a failure to feed again. I racked it once more and fired. Surprise! another failure to feed. I replaced the mag with a full mag of Remington UMC 55 gr. fmj and emptied it with no problems at all, so that ruled out the rifle being dirty or parts defective. I can't believe I am stuck with 491 rounds of useless ammunition. By the way, I used a Bushmaster A2, stock parts, usgi mags (aside from the bushmaster mag), with 16.5 m4 style barrel. Suffice it to say that I will never buy this type of ammo again. I think it's a sign for me to buy a bolt action rifle. Yeah that's the solution!
Pretty funny... and you're right, I did learn something! Everything I read about Wolf ammo is true.
I do a lot of research, and most of it is from reputable industry sources, not Wikipedia or user forums, and most of it suggests that Wolf is ok for com-bloc rifles since they were designed for 7.62x39 steel cased ammo, but when DPMS and RRA suggest staying away from steel cased ammo for the reasons I stated earlier, I will err on the side of the weapons manufacturer, not the ammo manufacturer, his clients, or his dedicated following....or in your own words, I will put "a bit more faith in their words that some others"...


My firearms and their reliability are worth more than ANY amount of cheap ammo!
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