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Old 09-08-2012, 03:36 AM   #11
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a true 1x rds with a 1 moa dot covers 1 inch at 100yds regardless of how far your eye is from the sight itself.

what gets confusing is that to get a true 1x through glass is not easy as it would seem. you would think its easy to get 1x but its not. its one of the reasons that aimpoints arent cheap. looking through glass of any thickness it either magnifies or reduces the image. for it to be 1x the glass pane has to be flat, smooth, and uniform in thickness.

its not too hard to make delicate glass panes 1x, happens all the time with microscope slides cheaply. making high impact durable glass 1x... not easy

so with cheaper optics like bsa, vortex, leupold etc you will get a shift in size depending on where your eye relief is. with things like eotech and aimpoint you get an optic that doesnt matter what your eye relief is. hence the confusion.

now all that being said no rds is going to give good results in terms of shooting for super small groups past about 50yards. so if a rds is 2.1 moa to 2.9 moa really doesnt matter much in terms of landing rounds on target. the purpose of a rds is to land hits inside an 18" circle at any given range in the rifle's effective range. i would say features, durability, ease of use, battery life, clarity in different light situations, and speed are more important factors in picking a red dot sight rather than worrying about exactly how big the dot is.

no rds is a target optic by any stretch.

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Old 09-08-2012, 04:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonM View Post
a true 1x rds with a 1 moa dot covers 1 inch at 100yds regardless of how far your eye is from the sight itself.

what gets confusing is that to get a true 1x through glass is not easy as it would seem. you would think its easy to get 1x but its not. its one of the reasons that aimpoints arent cheap. looking through glass of any thickness it either magnifies or reduces the image. for it to be 1x the glass pane has to be flat, smooth, and uniform in thickness.

its not too hard to make delicate glass panes 1x, happens all the time with microscope slides cheaply. making high impact durable glass 1x... not easy

so with cheaper optics like bsa, vortex, leupold etc you will get a shift in size depending on where your eye relief is. with things like eotech and aimpoint you get an optic that doesnt matter what your eye relief is. hence the confusion.

now all that being said no rds is going to give good results in terms of shooting for super small groups past about 50yards. so if a rds is 2.1 moa to 2.9 moa really doesnt matter much in terms of landing rounds on target. the purpose of a rds is to land hits inside an 18" circle at any given range in the rifle's effective range. i would say features, durability, ease of use, battery life, clarity in different light situations, and speed are more important factors in picking a red dot sight rather than worrying about exactly how big the dot is.

no rds is a target optic by any stretch.
And that is why I like a 1-4x scope with an illuminated reticle.
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Old 09-08-2012, 04:23 AM   #13
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And that is why I like a 1-4x scope with an illuminated reticle.
Thecheapest actuall 1x variable scope ive come across are the nightforce 1-4x. Everything else ive seen is between 1.1-1.9. My nikon african monarch 1-4x is actually closer to 1.2-4x. Kinda disapointing to figure that out when trying to cowitness buis through a supposed 1x scope.

I too prefer either a variable scope or a fixed power for ar15 or just plain iron sights. My wife likes her aimpoint but she wants a scope for her ar15 to go with it.
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Old 09-08-2012, 06:51 AM   #14
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Get the best for all worlds. Scope it and put a rds on a 45 degree mount.

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Old 09-09-2012, 04:50 AM   #15
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I can accept that by definition a 1 moa dot covers 1 inch at 100 yards. But the apparent dot size (MOA COVERAGE) is ENTIRELY dependant on the distance of the dot reflecting surface from the eye. The end of my index finger can be a 1 moa aiming device if I could get it far enough away from my eye. The point of a pencil can be 10 moa if you could focus on it that close to your eye.

So again my question is; Is there an industry standard that states that a dot of x mm on a reflecting surface x inches from the eye is x moa? The size of the dot is on the reflecting surface is the only fixed quantity. EVERYTHING ELSE IS A VARIABLE. So without an industry standard or a published standard used by each different mfgr, how can we objectively shop for a sight with MOA of the dot as a criteria for selection?


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Old 09-09-2012, 05:08 AM   #16
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Just to be clear. The only reason I'm hung up on this, is because I can't find a decent answer anywhere. I'm not trying to be argumentative or stubborn. I just have a difficult time accepting something at face value, something stated as a hard fact (when there are unsettled variables), which forces me to trust the sales material. I have been in retail far too long to trust the sales material.

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Old 09-09-2012, 10:14 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EW1066 View Post
Just to be clear. The only reason I'm hung up on this, is because I can't find a decent answer anywhere. I'm not trying to be argumentative or stubborn. I just have a difficult time accepting something at face value, something stated as a hard fact (when there are unsettled variables), which forces me to trust the sales material. I have been in retail far too long to trust the sales material.

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If you really want consistent dot size, get an EOTech it is a holographic retire and does remain the same size in appearance to the eye whether it is up close or out in a hand guard. I have seen this first hand at the range trying different mounting locations.

I have not tried this with a red dot sight though. Maybe I should. I never really worried about if because I never think of red dots as a precision sight so the difference in dot size never seemed to matter to me. I'll pull out and detatch it and see how the dot behaves as I move it away from my eye with the dot on something to see if it covers more or less of the targeted object.

I would bet that there is not an industry standard though.
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:17 PM   #18
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Moving my Bushnell TRS 25 red dot from the rear of the receiver out to full arms length away while holding teh dot next to a circle on my fence I can see no perceptable change in the dot size relative to the target. Must be part of the engineering.

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