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Old 12-25-2010, 04:38 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
Sounds like you need a magnified optic with a off-set red dot.
I completely agree with the red dot type being necessary. But, depending on how close the usual intended use will be determine the need for magnification.

I put a Bushnell Trophy Red/Green Dot no magnification on my 14.5" M-4gery and after dialing in at 25 yds, fine tuning at 100 yds, I was hitting a 10" steel plate at 200 yds consistently. (7/10 hits) It was also perfectly co-witnessed with my irons, however it did not need to be in line visually with the irons to get hits.

I'm very confident that I would be able to consistently hit a man-sized target at 400 yards. With that set up.

Also after using the Bushnell Red dot, there's NO WAY I'll ever drop $500 on a "top-tier" red-dot. I don't see it possible to perform better. Any error was produced by the shooter.
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Old 12-25-2010, 06:50 PM   #22
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I have to say the Bushnell TRS-25 RDS performs well too. The dot stays on target and is easy to double check due to the cowitness. Was on sale at Cabelas for $79 last summer and I'm glad I took a chance on it.

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Old 12-26-2010, 06:03 AM   #23
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I need some magnification, a red dot won't due. I can shoot just as well with the
iron sights. I have a red dot on the mossberg and it's awesome for quick
accusation. I was thinking something 5x - 10x, possibly with mildots.

I have heard the word ACOG but am not sure.
What does the military issue the frontline troops?

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Old 12-26-2010, 04:21 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gloves View Post
I need some magnification, a red dot won't due. I can shoot just as well with the
iron sights. I have a red dot on the mossberg and it's awesome for quick
accusation
. I was thinking something 5x - 10x, possibly with mildots.

I have heard the word ACOG but am not sure.
What does the military issue the frontline troops?
You completely contradicted yourself. I've also yet to see anyone shoot as well with irons alone, than with a Red dot @ 1x.
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Old 12-26-2010, 05:19 PM   #25
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I think someone with good vision can shoot as accurately with irons as with a 1x RDS. But you do acquire the target faster with the red dot. Where the bullet strikes with either system tends to depend on the shooter's skill.

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Old 12-26-2010, 05:35 PM   #26
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Another portion of the discussion over the red dot and the irons also depends upon the size or moa of the dot. For example if the dot is a 4MOA dot or larger will almost cover a normal sized paper plate at 100 yards. There fore almost making you guess to get the dot dead center. Been there and done that. That is one reason I like the EOTech with the 1 MOA Dot. But there is one thing for certain the dot is much faster on acquisition and no factors of alining everything. I shot match in the Army and the NRA Rifle Schools and all that was allowed was irons. They are also very accurate by a skilled shooter. For precision shooting at my age and eyes now I prefer the dot or a good quality rifle scope. Can't see the peeps that well anymore on my NM AR Rifle.
Probably need to drill out the rear aperture a little like at Camp Perry!

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Old 12-26-2010, 06:58 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gloves View Post
I need some magnification, a red dot won't due. I can shoot just as well with the
iron sights. I have a red dot on the mossberg and it's awesome for quick
accusation. I was thinking something 5x - 10x, possibly with mildots.

I have heard the word ACOG but am not sure.
What does the military issue the frontline troops?
Everything. EoTechs, Aimpoints, ACOGs, Elcans, you name it.

If you must have magnification a 1-4x w/ a offset red dot will have you covered. You really dont need the RDS but it wont hurt anything.
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Old 12-26-2010, 07:28 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Everything. EoTechs, Aimpoints, ACOGs, Elcans, you name it.
Exactly. . .

Gloves just 'cause it is military issued doesn't mean it is right for you. You already mentioned "needing" magnification. Then you ask what the military issues for "front line troops"? ! ? !

I GUARANTEE front line troops are using little (1-4x) to no magnification and are shooting at man-sized (men) targets under 300 yards.

We've had many former soldiers come into the Carpentry trade under the "Helmets to Hardhats" program we offer troops. Most Carpenters, especially in Colorado, talk guns, hunting, fishing, etc. What they use and what we use is very common, except our equipment is in much better shape. . . it is usually on it's first issue.

They'll all tell ya. . . most of their targets are engaged at 0-300 yds. Most of those fall in the 0-100 yd bracket. Most men with firearms experience are capable of consistent hits 300 yds and under with NO Magnification!

This is assuming you have decent, gun specific sights

Content.
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:39 AM   #29
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Diggs,

You are correct! Making 300 yard shots with the EOTech for example is no problem. My nephews just got back this past year from Iraq. I sent both of them with a new EOTech 552. They give them credit for the two of them still being here due to the speed of target acquisition.
Also with the one moa dot some people do not realize you can use the dot diameter to shoot targets at some distance. For example if you know your rifle is 2 MOA low at lets say 200 yards. The dot = 1 MOA so since it is an MOA you would hold 2 moa or 2 dots over while shooting using the dot as a measuring tool. A minute is a minute not mater how far out you are.
Minute:
Basically Speaking 1" at 100 2" at 200 3" at 300 4" at 400 and on and on.

So the dot which is a minute (1 in at 100) Would cover 4" at 400.
Maybe this will help some of the guys making their optics decision.

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Old 12-31-2010, 07:02 AM   #30
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Diggsbakes, I've shot with iron sights and shot with a low power scope from
the AR-15 platform before. The scope I shot through was Trijicon ACOG,
(can't get that one, the price is way out of my league).

I was 10 times more accurate with the scope (for obvious reasons).

So, my uncle has a couple of ARs and isn't using his Chinese knock-off
ACOG scope. My 10-day waiting period will be up soon, he told me I can
use it on my AR for some time to see if I like it.

I opted for the AR with the flat top so that I can snap on a scope or the
carry handle/iron sights. I would like to be proficient with both at
200-300yrds.

There's no way I'll have a military brand scope/reticle due to their crazy
price. It'll most likely be some knock-off that works well enough for me.
Or even more likely, if I like the scope my uncle has, i'll try to buy it off him.

This is the longest 10 days of my life! (I feel like i've said that before)

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