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Old 02-28-2013, 05:13 AM   #21
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Whether or not you want in the debate, you just stepped into it with both feet.

Maybe you should think an analogy through before using it. Your car wheel theory is ill founded. Do you think that a wooden spoked wheel could stand up to the speeds and weight of todays cars? They had to be made of metal in order to stand up to the punishment that would utterly destroy a wooden wheel.

As for carbon fiber body panels, They are lighter, but not stronger that the steel body parts they replace. If they were the same weight they would be stronger. there are always trade offs when dealing with polymers. Yes there are cars that are made entirely of carbon fiber. But, like the glock, they were designed from the ground up to be made like that. The sub structure and load distribution had to be designed to play to the strengths of the material used. Think honeycomb structures. They are lighter than their steel counter parts but they are thicker and much more expensive to produce.

As I have said before when someone designs an AR lower from the ground up to EFFECTIVELY use polymers I will look at it. Until then you and anyone else are welcome to own one and I sincerely hope that you are happy with your purchasing decision.
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OK so you helped me vindicate my point. The wooden wheel worked, and was the standard for many years. Now, after a while they realized there could be a better way. The Model T ran over 14 years on wood spoke wheels with a wood band holding them together. So then it came in metal wheels, which roughened the ride a bit, but elongated the time the wheels ran without failure. Now even some many more years later the aluminum wheel came along, and provided a lower weight option by using a new technology. Along the way they added nylon tires, which was replaced by rubber tires. The story goes on and on that the product that started the revolution of cars, looks nothing like what it did when it started, weighs less, and goes faster all with the addition of space aged advances.
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:41 AM   #22
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Once again you over looked a very important part of the equation. That is that although the wheel is still round today, Its structure has very little in common with the model T wooden spoked wheel. Each incarnation has required a redesign on one or more aspects of the tire and wheel in order to properly utilize the new materials. The structure of an aluminum wheel , while lighter than a steel wheel, is MUCH thicker than its steel counterpart. So you see, what you see as vindication is only proof that you did not think through your analogy prior to presenting it. Do some research into the design considerations needed when employing polymers / composites and you will quickly understand your arguments make little sense.

You can continue to oversimplify the facts to suit your argument but that wont change the fact that, if you take an NFA lower with a stuck bolt carrier group, and try to mortar it, the likelihood of breaking it is much higher than it would be with an aluminum lower.

If you think they are so great, then by all means continue to use them and purchase them until you heart is content. I'm not trying to stop you or anyone else from purchasing them; If that is what they want when they have all the facts. I'm only trying to help people make an informed decision.

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Old 02-28-2013, 01:21 PM   #23
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...I just wanted to build an ar that I could afford. Lol, love the debate though

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Old 02-28-2013, 03:21 PM   #24
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This horse has been beaten to death...
For someone who made that statement you sure seem to be mashing the bones of that dead horse into dust. Have you ever actually owned or tested out a polymer or carbon fiber lower or is this all just persistent conjecture? In the end I am just one of those people who put more faith in those with actual first hand experience and knowledge than people who formulate unproven theories based on potentially inaccurate perceptions.
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:26 PM   #25
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...I just wanted to build an ar that I could afford. Lol, love the debate though
Polymer lowers are fine from what I've seen. I built a rifle (that I sold before ever shooting) on the same NFA complete lower you're talking about. Pretty much everything beyond the buffer tube is plastic, and the stock sucks. So replace the stock if its to be a keeper. The trigger is actually surprisingly good, however.

I probably won't ever build a rifle I much care for around a poly lower due to my own preferences. But I am building a cheap featherweight on a ATI OMNI right now, just because I have the spare parts to get it together. And I already have some concerns. I had some of the plastic start tearing/splitting when knocking in the bolt catch roll pin. Admittedly, this is often a PIA task in any build. But this isn't my first build and I've never had any such issues. If the tear grows, I'll probably have to look into sending it in for a replacement.

So in my opinion, polymer lowers can be fine. I know a number of people who swear by the ones they've run thousands of rounds through. But I'd also always prefer/trust/endorse aluminum over poly if possible.
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:43 PM   #26
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Everyone must make their own decision. If you want to take a chance on polymer for the serialized "firearm" component then go ahead. I won't add except to say +1 to what EW1066 said. I think the OP would be wise to wait and research. Odds are the supply situation will improve over the next month or so.

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Old 02-28-2013, 05:54 PM   #27
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Once again you over looked a very important part of the equation. That is that although the wheel is still round today, Its structure has very little in common with the model T wooden spoked wheel. Each incarnation has required a redesign on one or more aspects of the tire and wheel in order to properly utilize the new materials. The structure of an aluminum wheel , while lighter than a steel wheel, is MUCH thicker than its steel counterpart. So you see, what you see as vindication is only proof that you did not think through your analogy prior to presenting it. Do some research into the design considerations needed when employing polymers / composites and you will quickly understand your arguments make little sense.

You can continue to oversimplify the facts to suit your argument but that wont change the fact that, if you take an NFA lower with a stuck bolt carrier group, and try to mortar it, the likelihood of breaking it is much higher than it would be with an aluminum lower.

If you think they are so great, then by all means continue to use them and purchase them until you heart is content. I'm not trying to stop you or anyone else from purchasing them; If that is what they want when they have all the facts. I'm only trying to help people make an informed decision.

EDUB
I love the blind. Your argument is based on an AR can only be made from aluminum because that's what it was when designed. I said, the first car wheel was designed with wood, with a hub center and and you maintain that's not the same. Well then, I call your bet and raise you a picture or two.




Please, elaborate on the great difference and redesign there. I'm going to love to hear it. The width of the wheel has nothing to do with it. That is simply to accommodate a wider tire. The fact here is that the design of those aluminum wheels and that wood wheel are exactly the same. A hub with spokes extending to the outside. The only difference is wood and aluminum, built off the same design that didn't change in 100 years.

As I said in the first statement I made, I don't care to be involved in the debate. However, I will call out what I see that is blatantly wrong.
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:38 PM   #28
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I love the blind. Your argument is based on an AR can only be made from aluminum because that's what it was when designed. I said, the first car wheel was designed with wood, with a hub center and and you maintain that's not the same. Well then, I call your bet and raise you a picture or two.
Just because you cannot separate function and structure does not make me blind. You are the one who has his eyes ,and mind, closed and refuses to see the light

To have this debate with someone who refuses to see the forest for the trees is pointless, and I will no longer put any effort into educating you.

Have a great day. I sincerely hope you enjoy your rifle and that it serves you well for a long time.

EDUB
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:19 PM   #29
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Just because you cannot separate function and structure does not make me blind. You are the one who has his eyes ,and mind, closed and refuses to see the light

To have this debate with someone who refuses to see the forest for the trees is pointless, and I will no longer put any effort into educating you.

Have a great day. I sincerely hope you enjoy your rifle and that it serves you well for a long time.

EDUB
When all else fails, and you have lost to tangible evidence, it is time to tuck tail and depart while claiming victory from the door. Not only can I separate form and function, I was State champion debater. I would however, thoroughly enjoy you trying to explain to us how the engineering in the above pictures differs from the spoked wood wheel to the aluminum one. As I said, width is irrelevant as it's sole purpose is to accommodate the wider tires of the day, which didn't exit in the time of the Model T. It's not even a matter of winning or loosing an argument at this point, I just want to hear you explain how the engineering or geometry of the two differs. If you can legitimately do so, I'll publically retract my statement of your blind ignorance on this thread.

This in particular I want to hear you extrapolate on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EW1066
That is that although the wheel is still round today, Its structure has very little in common with the model T wooden spoked wheel. Each incarnation has required a redesign on one or more aspects of the tire and wheel in order to properly utilize the new materials. The structure of an aluminum wheel , while lighter than a steel wheel, is MUCH thicker than its steel counterpart.
What your saying, or as I read it as your wrote it, is that the wheel is still round but has nothing in common with it's past structure......the semantics of round seem to be what you are trying to show, however the wheel was round when invented, and still is round to this day. The design was simple spokes on a hub, or limbs from a core if you wish. The core supports the arms by spreading the pressure out in the circle. (which we can also see the likes of in buildings that utilize arches to spread the load bearing section over a greater area) Whether this is achieved with wood, aluminum, steel, or unobtainium doesn't change the form or function of the design. Enough of my explanation though, ultimately I'm more interested in yours.

(by the way, those aluminum wheels are hollow on the back side, and thinner than the wooden spokes)
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:04 AM   #30
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I was State champion debater.
This proves only that you like to argue, but proves nothing about your knowledge of the subject at hand.

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I would however, thoroughly enjoy you trying to explain to us how the engineering in the above pictures differs from the spoked wood wheel to the aluminum one.
When going from wood to steel, designers went from a marginally adequate material to one that was well suited for the task. Steel being stronger than wood allowed manufacturers to stamp out STRONGER wheels at a faster pace than a wooden wheel could be made. The spokes could actually be flat and still handle the forces, although a solid center disk to was faster produce and was the standard for many years. Next came aluminum. While aluminum is a weaker metal than steel, it is lighter. Its ability to be drawn more easily than steel made it very attractive as a replacement in applications where steel was too heavy or simply over engineered. Where a steel rim is somewhere around 1/8th of an inch thick an aluminum rim must be thicker (twice as much in some areas) to be as strong but is still lighter.

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(by the way, those aluminum wheels are hollow on the back side, and thinner than the wooden spokes)
The hollow spokes that you refer to are actually "C" channels. Which gives the ,weaker aluminum, almost the same strength as if it were solid yet still saving weight. Notice if you will how "the engineered structure" of the spoke has changed yet it remains visually the same.

To summarize, when going from one material (WOOD) to one with superior strength (STEEL) things can be made thinner at the expense of it maybe being heavier. When going from strong heavy steel to lighter not quite as strong aluminum, things had to get thicker to make up for the weakness of aluminum.

New Frontier made an almost exact copy of an AR 15 lower. A lower that was designed by a man who designed it to use the least amount of aluminum necessary to get the job done. As Time went on even more metal was removed from the design to make it even lighter (slab sided to fenced sides). NFA made their copy from a polymer that is not as strong as aluminum. But in doing so they did not beef up any of the areas that would need it. Such as the area where the buffer tube mounts and the area just below the buffer tube by the rear take down pin.

Okay so next you will reference their torture test video where they put their lower in a press and compress it and they make a big deal about how their lower bounced back from x amount of deflection and that the aluminum lower did not. What they do not show is the force required to produce the deflection in the two test lowers. I GUARANTEE the force required to deflect the aluminum was greater than the force required to deflect the polymer. All they proved in that video is that their lower is flexible. Since when has physical flexibility been considered a good thing in a firearm?

So if we look at the wheel which you so often like to reference, if they took an aluminum rim and made a mold of it. Then without making any changes to the design they used it to injection mold a polymer exact copy of that rim. Would you be willing to put those rims on your car and let you wife drive that car with the kids in it across the country?

I have a feeling I know your answer. But I will wait for it anyway.

EDUB
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