Let's End The AR BS! - Page 10
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:26 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by junho806 View Post
what type of tactical sling is best for an AR?
one two or three point sling?
If you are willing to trust Larry Vickers - after all, he's only got 20 plus years in the field of Black Ops and is a "plank holder" for Delta - he has tips for people interested to listening to what he has to say on the subject...

JD
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Old 10-06-2008, 05:33 AM   #92
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Ok Well after reading this whole threade and some otheres I am looking at putting together a lower before the end of the year (just to be safe) in mil-spec just for basic plinking/time killer/ home protection and such..... (am alredy looking at making a match grade .308 AR sniper rig if the mil-spec gose well).

So I thought I would post what I am seeing right now....
CMMG AR-15 5.56mm Lower Receiver - STRIPPED - As listed by JD on page 2
DPMS lower kit
M4 style stock - not sure on it yet

And then a DPMS A3 flat top upper
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=537768

Now I have not ruled out building my own upper but nor do I know if I will have the time/will to make my own.

Also as for building the lower on the DPMS kit how is the trigger that come with it?

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Old 10-06-2008, 06:14 AM   #93
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Ok Well after reading this whole threade and some otheres I am looking at putting together a lower before the end of the year (just to be safe) in mil-spec just for basic plinking/time killer/ home protection and such..... (am alredy looking at making a match grade .308 AR sniper rig if the mil-spec gose well).

So I thought I would post what I am seeing right now....
CMMG AR-15 5.56mm Lower Receiver - STRIPPED - As listed by JD on page 2
DPMS lower kit
M4 style stock - not sure on it yet

And then a DPMS A3 flat top upper
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=537768

Now I have not ruled out building my own upper but nor do I know if I will have the time/will to make my own.

Also as for building the lower on the DPMS kit how is the trigger that come with it?
The CMMG lower works great for me and so does the DPMS lower kit
the trigger is pretty much the basic trigger
it works fine with my rifle but probably gonna change the springs for smoother pull
but honestly its really personal preference you should see how it works for you

as for the upper i built mine myself just for the experience but i think buying the upper complete breaks about even
i see youre going with the 20" barrel then i would think an A1 solid stock would work better but again its personal preference
JD knows better he'll say anything that i missed or said incorrectly
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Old 10-06-2008, 03:34 PM   #94
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Interesting thread. I disagree with a lot of it, simply from the fact that I've corrected/tossed more out of spec 'mil-spec' DPMS/Oly/Whoever parts over the years than I can remember. Soft disconnectors, out of spec bolts, bolt carriers, broken springs, barrels that couldn't be zero'd, you name it.

99% of hobbyist built guns that show up for serious training rarely finish day one. Either their assembled incorrectly because of something that they read ont he errorweb or the 'mil spec' parts that they used crap the bed. Sometimes you get what you pay for, simple as that.

Yes, it can range from 20.00 (Stag LPK) to 90.00 (Colt) more for just your LPK, but at least I can lessen/eliminate parts failure from the list of things to worry about and concentrate on my attention to assembly detail.

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Old 10-06-2008, 03:41 PM   #95
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I would suggest that the guys that are showing up to your training are probably not paying attention then.

The idea of the thread is that you DO NOT need to spend $1,500 on a name brand AR to be able to have a good, reliable, model.

If you can spend $1,500 - then good for you. However in this day and age a lot of people who want a good AR, can't afford the over inflated models on the market.

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99% of hobbyist built guns that show up for serious training rarely finish day one. Either their assembled incorrectly because of something that they read ont he errorweb or the 'mil spec' parts that they used crap the bed. Sometimes you get what you pay for, simple as that.
I find that number truly staggering, and wholly exaggerated, and would put any of my "hobbyist" built models up for a test and be more than comfortable...

Fact of the matter is, a receiver is a receiver, it doesn't matter who's name is on the side. If you save money there, you can purchase other parts for the internals that will allow you a better overall gun.

JD
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:37 PM   #96
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I would suggest that the guys that are showing up to your training are probably not paying attention then.

The idea of the thread is that you DO NOT need to spend $1,500 on a name brand AR to be able to have a good, reliable, model.

If you can spend $1,500 - then good for you. However in this day and age a lot of people who want a good AR, can't afford the over inflated models on the market.

I find that number truly staggering, and wholly exaggerated, and would put any of my "hobbyist" built models up for a test and be more than comfortable...

Fact of the matter is, a receiver is a receiver, it doesn't matter who's name is on the side. If you save money there, you can purchase other parts for the internals that will allow you a better overall gun.
You're a gunsmith (so I infer from your post), so I don't consider your builds to be 'hobbyist'. Other than some ammo failures (popped primers) my builds run flawlessly.

Given that, I still don't see how firearms that leave the factory with improperly staked gas keys (Bushmaster), out of spec bolt carriers (DPMS), out of spec LPK (Olympic and DPMS equally), etc, etc, somehow constitutes the students 'failure to pay attention'. I tend to classify is that there are hobby builds (guys in their garage) and hobby brands (DPMS, Oly, etc). These are perfectly fine for plinking or 100rd range days, but for serious, in harms way / self-defense use, totally inappropriate.

Having seen lowers where mags would not insert, casting deformities where the BCG and CH would randomly lock up, I also assert that not all receivers are created equally. Its a trade off in the big scheme of things, you can buy once nice and get a finely tuned machine, think a Rolex of ARs, or you can buy the Dollar store watch and after considerable tinkering and tuning, maybe get it to run properly. My time is worth money, so I'd prefer to buy once and be done with it.

Can you build a AR for less than the cost of a Colt, certainly. Will it be the Colt's equal in quality, longevity and performance? Unlikely.

So can you GET Colt like quality and TDP compliance for less from a quality name? Sure:

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=358
485.00

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=124
330.00

Grand total before transfer fees: 815.00. A rifle like this certainly qualifies as a "tier 1" weapon, and is comparable in price to most of your "tier 3" offerings. I'd pay that extra 120.00 any day to know exactly what I'm getting. Heck, that lower is the same cost as what you priced out on page 2. A dollar less even WITH the 6pos stock.

That being said, I'm no collector, I don't bang rounds at p'dawgs, or to punch paper. I keep my weapons for self-defense, period. I simply don't see that risking my life over 100 - 200 dollars is a worthwhile investment. So I agree to disagree.
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:58 PM   #97
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Actually I am an apprentice, and don't consider myself an expert at all. I don't think I have ever said I am the all knowing guru, and have frequently tried to shy away from such comments. When someone wants to talk AR's I am more than willing to help them, because I think everyone should have one in their house. It's a great weapon, when done correctly.

My comment about the guy not paying attention was in relation to you stating that hobby built guns fail your training. If you bought an Olympic Arms build, the you are getting what they turned out. That would have nothing to do with the guy in question. If he built a kit gun, and the damn thing didn't work, then he wasn't paying attention during the build. However, if he did build the gun from a kit, and something went wrong, AT LEAST the guy would know what to do to repair/replace the part. That is worth more, to me, than having someone hand some joker a $2,000 gun that he knows absolutely NOTHING about. Because, contrary to popular opinion, the high dollar guns run into problems too. I would rather the guy behind the unit know what to do, safely & effectively, then turn around with the thing in hand looking for an instructor because he doesn't have the foggiest damn idea what to do next.

For the record, I never said any of brands listed were the ultimate gun. What I have been saying is their receivers are pretty much the same, regardless of who's name is on them, unless you are buying a top of the line CNC machined unit. You don't need a high dollar unit from Dave Lauck or Sabre Defense to be able to throw rounds down range & feel confident in the units' ability to protect you.

What I am trying to do is break through some of this constant, high dollar, main stream marketing that rams the idea that you don't have a "real" chance of defendng yourself unless you buy Brand X.

Colt has had just as many problems as any other manufacturing, assembly line guns. Are their internals really better than I can buy in the aftermarket? Colt has never had problems shipping weapons missing extractors? Yeah, we both know they have. They also had problems with the material they were using in their lowers with the larger Colt pins causing wear back in the 90's. But, they addressed them, made improvments and continue to produce a fine unit, for the money.

Your time may be valuable to you, and you may be able to afford the very best. Good for you. But some people have an interest in doing it themselves. Some people would like to be able to build something and save a few bucks, especially now with an election looming and a recession in the works.

When you have licensed firearm's trainers and other black ops, former Delta/SeALs/ "Combat Experts" & slick, high dollar marketing campaigns trying to tell people that the only AR to have is the one with the $1500 price tag on it, I think that is just plain bullsh!t because I know differently.

If someone can afford the best, good for them. But don't try to tell the average Joe that his hand assembled work isn't going to be able to stand up to some production gun merely because of the name. Knowing what the weapon can do, and knowing how to work on it, has value just as much, in my mind, as your time does in yours.

JD

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Old 10-06-2008, 05:08 PM   #98
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I'm no expert, but I do read, fairly carefully what the experts have to say. And conversely, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But here's what I see:

Colt: We rock, everyone else sucks! (misleading marketing)

DPMS: We rock, we're just as good as Colt at 1/2 price! (misleading marketing)

They're both equally guilty (I'm merely picking on DPMS cause they're easy). So there's an investment one way or the other. I agree that investing in yourself and getting good tools/training is the ideal, but if I had to prioritize between Rifle, Firearms Training and Armorer/Gunsmith Training, the rifle and firearms training should always be 1st and 2nd.

Anyhow, I've got the cold from hell so back to bed for me. Have fun and stay safe today guys!

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Old 10-06-2008, 06:37 PM   #99
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I'm no expert, but I do read, fairly carefully what the experts have to say. And conversely, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But here's what I see:

Colt: We rock, everyone else sucks! (misleading marketing)

DPMS: We rock, we're just as good as Colt at 1/2 price! (misleading marketing)

They're both equally guilty (I'm merely picking on DPMS cause they're easy). So there's an investment one way or the other. I agree that investing in yourself and getting good tools/training is the ideal, but if I had to prioritize between Rifle, Firearms Training and Armorer/Gunsmith Training, the rifle and firearms training should always be 1st and 2nd.

Anyhow, I've got the cold from hell so back to bed for me. Have fun and stay safe today guys!
hope you feel better!

and i'd be happy to pit my "garage-built" AR-15 with yours any day
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Old 10-06-2008, 07:40 PM   #100
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Will someone please tell the DPMS "built from parts" and complete factory AR's in my safe that they are not supposed to be reliable as they have been for the past 4 to 10 years, and not supposed to have made it through 2 trips to Gun Site and Thunder Ranch (without any hiccups or missing a beat - while some higher priced units around them bit the dust), and one of them being on it's 3rd barrel from having over 20,000 rounds through it and still being able to print 1-1.5 MOA all day

Don't worry though, in the same safe there are units from Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Noveske, and LMT. And you know what? None of them work any better than the "dollar store" DPMS units that I either bought whole or made from parts - myself. Sure they have had a few QC probs in the past. Name one "brand" name that hasn't?

Back to the original post, JD was making a point that one did not have to drop $$$$'s to get a reliable AR, that you could count on to go bang every time you needed it to. Maybe it won't be "MIL-SPEC" or have the latest DESIGNER name on it, but that isn't what the post was all about, nor does that make the AR any more or less reliable.

I've been around this platform for well over 30 years now, from A1's to race-guns. Am I an expert, hell no, nor do I claim to be. I do own a few high-dollar/TOP-TIER models that quite a few would drool over, on down to the so-called DOLLAR-STORE units that you chose to to point out, as well as a dozen or so units that I have put together myself. I can afford to buy a custom tuned Noveske/LMT/Colt/etc/etc/etc, and have done that, not because I need the brand name badging to impress anyone at the range or on line. I did it to find out how they were putting their pieces together, what tricks of the trade they were employing, to improve my knowledge and skill at putting my own together.

Sure, you can buy whatever upper and lower assemblies you want and push the 2-pins in and say that you put one together. A monkey could do that. And in the process, each of you would know how to align the assemblies and push in the 2 pins. But for the hobbyists/fans/afficianados/etc., some of us seek the challenge of putting all the rest of the parts together to assemble the unit, rather than rely on whether or not some other shop monkey was having a good day or not when he put those assemblies together. That and the fact that in doing so, those same hobbyists, etc. are learning not only how to put one together, but to be able to take it apart, identify that it is put together correctly, and be able to identify where any problem might be and be able to fix it - THEMSELVES. That in itself makes it worth it, because the day the SPACE ZOMBIES decide to invade your corner of the planet, could be the day that your store bought pieces decide to have a bad-pin day. Then what would you do?

Take some more cold meds, and re-read the original post and you'll see that his intent was not to bash high dollar AR's or be-little low budget want-to-be-owners, but to offer options to those wanting to own an AR without having to second mortgage their house. And from that simple post, some members have already succeeded in attempting and completed assembling their own AR from parts - and are having fun and success with their work. More on the way. By the way....you can even buy the parts with those same DESIGNER names on them, if you want

Slo

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