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-   -   Let's End The AR BS! (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f20/lets-end-ar-bs-5843/)

Dillinger 07-26-2008 02:47 AM

Let's End The AR BS!
 
Recently I have been taking A LOT of e-mails and questions from this forum, and an other one I post on, concerning the upcoming election and how to get an AR before anyone makes changes to the legalities. :eek:

Apparently there is a ton of misinformation out there concerning "3 Tiers" of AR platforms that everyone subscribes too. I was not informed of this recent change of classifications, but apparently everyone voted and the results were final.

Look. Let's get real here. You want to buy the most prestigious AR on the planet?! The one that everyone will drop their jaws at and WISH they were as cool as you?! Here's a couple of links for you.

Sabre Defence

OR

Look for Precision AR Rifle

Okay. Are we done f***ing around?! Let's get down to the bottom line for members of the real world.

Look. An AR platform is an AR platform is an AR platform. It does not matter WHO makes your platform as long as the upper and the lower match up in a nice, friendly and relatively tight tolerance sort of way. If you after World Record type groups, then yes, every part matters. But, if you are after an AR that is going to fire everytime, hit what you are aiming at ( within reason ) and be a solid & reliable piece of kit - the upper and lower manufacturer shouldn't be your shopping criteria.

Most manufacturers of AR parts put out a "package rifle". That package, unless you are buying one like the examples above, is going to include some sub-par parts, or parts that you would prefer they had changed with Brand "X". Basically, you are buying the same caliber product as if you buy a package laptop, home computer or "sport" package automobile.

They all offer you a reasonable amount of performance, but if you tore them down to the core and built one from the ground up, you probably would chose different parts than what the bean counters at the Ford SVT Finance Department or Dell's Accounting Department chose to keep the project wthin "market tolerance".

If you take ANY upper and lower receiver to a qualified gunsmith, he(she) can take those parts and build you a tack driving AR that will make you proud.

Anyone can put together an AR package that will shoot sub-MOA all day long. The reason they aren't doing it, of all the AR parts and rifle manufacturers out there, is that there is a price break that the market will bear. If I were to offer you a package rifle that will shoot the "X" ring out of a target at 500 yards, guaranteed, everyone would be interested. The next question would be, "how much"? If I said $1USD - I couldn't make them fast enough to keep the buyers happy. If I offered the same package at $4500USD - I would starve to death... LOL

There are a couple of gunsmiths that turn out a "No Compromises" AR Rifle that will make you proud, they are referenced above. I am sure there are others, but those guys are the 800 pound Gorillas in the room.

But..... Do you really think you NEED a second mortage to be able to afford it?!

Go. Talk to a qualified gunsmith in your state and find out what he can do for you in the price range that you are looking to spend.

You might be surprised at what you can get for the money.

JD

matt g 07-26-2008 05:18 PM

This is good info as I'm getting ready to buy a couple of stripped lowers and was wondering about some of this stuff. Thanks again!

Is it a good idea to spend the extra cash on high end trigger parts?

Dillinger 07-26-2008 07:38 PM

To be honest, we tune standard GI Triggers and put them in AR's all the time. There are some good tricks that can be done to tune just about any trigger to the shooter. The benefits of a Match Grade, or a custom trigger, is that you can tune it / have it tuned so that it "breaks like glass" - You get a nice smooth take up and then BANG! Round on target.

To directly answer your question Matt - NO. You don't NEED to buy a high end trigger component.

BUT, and there always is one, the better the trigger is, the better the overall shot placement is going to be.

When you get serious, feel free to shoot me a PM and I will see if I can't help you out on the build if you like. :cool:

JD

genie 07-27-2008 12:47 AM

Yeah, but Commodity Rules
 
We done been up and down this road before, so use some caution before jumping into multiple mortgages to buy AR's, or such, because of an upcoming election. Look at the history here: Clinton had an adamantly anti-gun Cabinet, guys like Lloyd Bentsen, illegally declaring certain guns as "destructive devices" (the Street Sweeper shotgun), they got their Crime Bill, ATF got boo-coo more budget, lots of guys got busted, gun shows sold out huge amounts of ammo and guns, and, yes, prices WENT UP. Especially right before passage of the Bill. Then it was hi-cap magazines, buy all you could, while you could, only thing was, a little later, MILLIONS of hi-caps appeared all over the country at wildly inflated prices. Remember Glock mags at $125? So, 2 things there: if you bought lots, both pre-ban guns and mags, you could sell them for profit. But, post-ban stuff appeared (guns) with more politically correct features, no bayo lugs, no pistol grips, no collapsible stocks, no flash hiders, and many, many new-timers bought them because they were CHEAPER than pre-bans, which had become more desirable to the "old-timers".

Pre-ban features continued to be produced in post-ban times, but legal for, and marked so, indelibly, "Law Enforcement/Military Use Only", so if a guy unknowingly bought such from someone, and he was not LE or a Mil. officer charged with procurement, he could be arrested and charged.

Move ahead to Bush, 10 year Bill requirement comes due in which, among other things, the hi-cap ban's RESULTS on crime are supposed to be reviewed, and recommendations made. Instead, the whole deal dies at Bush's desk; all of a sudden AR's are everywhere, everybody wants one, but prices fall anyway. Pre-ban Colts which got $2000 in 1995 were now maybe $1000, or even less. Look at other military: Uzi, 1/2 price, along with many others. Mind you, SOME held up pretty good; try to buy a Valmet 82 Bullpup, for example.

My point is, don't go overboard and buy something many already have. Try rather to fix in your own mind which items will become VERY desirable, should a new crime bill pass, or even if one does not. Remember that decisions made FOR YOU by SOMEONE ELSE make MONEY for the OTHER GUY. Now, if your tack is like the schoolteacher who came up to me at a gun show in Phoenix, about 1993 or so, and bought my 2 Uzi's for $3500 (I thought he was crazy), but he was buying them for his 2 little boys, whom he hoped would keep those guns forever, no matter WHAT frigging laws got passed, (Then I realized he was not so crazy after all), then this is a bit different line of reasoning.

bluealtered 07-27-2008 02:18 AM

You can spend as much, or as little on this as your pocket will stand, you can go to camp perry and just think you've gone to heaven after seeing some of the rifles there.

However you can also go to places like model1sales and others and get the stuff you need and build cheap shootable ar's that will make dime groups all day long with a little trigger work. (no i didn't say top of the line, just cheap and workable)

As stated above, it all depends on your idea of whats best, i have a cheapo special that weighs 5.5lbs that i hunt with every week end that drives tacks. I have in the past owned expensive ar's that sat in the safe and collected dust because they were to good to get scratched. I only had to ruin one expensive rifle to figure out what was best for me. blue

rickrem700 07-27-2008 06:19 AM

Ar's
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dillinger (Post 33449)
Recently I have been taking A LOT of e-mails and questions from this forum, and an other one I post on, concerning the upcoming election and how to get an AR before anyone makes changes to the legalities. :eek:

Apparently there is a ton of misinformation out there concerning "3 Tiers" of AR platforms that everyone subscribes too. I was not informed of this recent change of classifications, but apparently everyone voted and the results were final.

Look. Let's get real here. You want to buy the most prestigious AR on the planet?! The one that everyone will drop their jaws at and WISH they were as cool as you?! Here's a couple of links for you.

Sabre Defence

OR

Look for Precision AR Rifle

Okay. Are we done f***ing around?! Let's get down to the bottom line for members of the real world.

Look. An AR platform is an AR platform is an AR platform. It does not matter WHO makes your platform as long as the upper and the lower match up in a nice, friendly and relatively tight tolerance sort of way. If you after World Record type groups, then yes, every part matters. But, if you are after an AR that is going to fire everytime, hit what you are aiming at ( within reason ) and be a solid & reliable piece of kit - the upper and lower manufacturer shouldn't be your shopping criteria.

Most manufacturers of AR parts put out a "package rifle". That package, unless you are buying one like the examples above, is going to include some sub-par parts, or parts that you would prefer they had changed with Brand "X". Basically, you are buying the same caliber product as if you buy a package laptop, home computer or "sport" package automobile.

They all offer you a reasonable amount of performance, but if you tore them down to the core and built one from the ground up, you probably would chose different parts than what the bean counters at the Ford SVT Finance Department or Dell's Accounting Department chose to keep the project wthin "market tolerance".

If you take ANY upper and lower receiver to a qualified gunsmith, he(she) can take those parts and build you a tack driving AR that will make you proud.

Anyone can put together an AR package that will shoot sub-MOA all day long. The reason they aren't doing it, of all the AR parts and rifle manufacturers out there, is that there is a price break that the market will bear. If I were to offer you a package rifle that will shoot the "X" ring out of a target at 500 yards, guaranteed, everyone would be interested. The next question would be, "how much"? If I said $1USD - I couldn't make them fast enough to keep the buyers happy. If I offered the same package at $4500USD - I would starve to death... LOL

There are a couple of gunsmiths that turn out a "No Compromises" AR Rifle that will make you proud, they are referenced above. I am sure there are others, but those guys are the 800 pound Gorillas in the room.

But..... Do you really think you NEED a second mortage to be able to afford it?!

Go. Talk to a qualified gunsmith in your state and find out what he can do for you in the price range that you are looking to spend.

You might be surprised at what you can get for the money.

JD

Totaly agree, well put!!!

RL357Mag 07-27-2008 03:01 PM

After the 94 ban, some states banned the possession of "assault" rifles, like Ct.. Ct. residents were required to turn them in at the local cop station. .NY required registering them at the local cop station. So before you spend ANY money on an "assault" weapon, think about what will happen when Mr. Anti-gun becomes President and what he and his anti-gun Senators and Congressmen have up their sleeves. Just because you can buy it now, does not mean you can keep it later - and if they require you to turn it in, they will not "buy it back" from you! There is a new law in the works making it a crime if you don't claim your gun stolen, and if you claim it stolen and it really wasn't, that's a crime also!

Dillinger 07-27-2008 06:01 PM

This thread kind of took off the intent with whether or not buying an AR now will be a smart move. Let me say this...

No one should ever advocate, or participate themselves, in someone buying "over their head" or getting into a financial problem because they feel a need to keep up with the rest of the Forum, or out of fear they are missing out on something.

You have a responsibility to your family first - keep that in mind. Preparing for SHTF the is fan is a great idea, but don't forget you have to survive everyday life as well. ;)

Now, as for the "whether or not" buying an AR now is a good idea. At this point, there is a very real chance that we will be given an Anti-Gun President, regardless of who we get. Obama may be the weapon Anti-Christ, but McCain's record isn't that much better across the history of the man. At least McCain has taken the endorsement from the NRA, so there is hope they showed him some footage of Daily Plaza that was never be for seen outside of the power mongers dark, smoke filled rooms Bill Hicks style that got his attention. :D

Right now, within most States of the US, a person can sell, from private person to private person, a firearm without any special paperwork or reporting. You should definitely investigate the laws in your area and explore this option.

Anyone looking at purchasing an AR for the first time should really consider the used market. Very good values can be found there, especially with the economy in the state that it is in, currently.

My real intent for this thread was to expose the fact that you do not need to go heavily into debt to build an AR that will function all day, every day. You can also build yourself a tack driving AR much cheaper than you can purchase a tack driving package new, with a little know how and some careful shopping.

JD

matt g 07-27-2008 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dillinger (Post 33522)
To be honest, we tune standard GI Triggers and put them in AR's all the time. There are some good tricks that can be done to tune just about any trigger to the shooter. The benefits of a Match Grade, or a custom trigger, is that you can tune it / have it tuned so that it "breaks like glass" - You get a nice smooth take up and then BANG! Round on target.

To directly answer your question Matt - NO. You don't NEED to buy a high end trigger component.

BUT, and there always is one, the better the trigger is, the better the overall shot placement is going to be.

When you get serious, feel free to shoot me a PM and I will see if I can't help you out on the build if you like. :cool:

JD

Untuned GI triggers, which I've had a lot of experience with, tend to feel very notchy and unnatural. Any tips to tuning an inexpensive trigger?

Lemme know if you have any more off topic bickering in this thread. Just use the 'report bad post'.

Dillinger 07-28-2008 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matt g (Post 33710)
Untuned GI triggers, which I've had a lot of experience with, tend to feel very notchy and unnatural. Any tips to tuning an inexpensive trigger?

The most recent one that was done, Brett actually did it for his own personal AR - to see if he could do it. He cut one of the legs off the trigger spring altogether and tightened the wrap ( which helped even out the spring under tension, then he wet stoned the faces that meet between the trigger and the hammer. It's about 3.5# on the trigger gauge, but it's really quite smooth. For a good, inexpensive trigger, it's really well done. I will see if I can get a picture of it for you so you can see what he did. It's a nice finish product for very little real cash outlayed.
Quote:

Lemme know if you have any more off topic bickering in this thread. Just use the 'report bad post'.
I appreciate the clean up - The intent was to use this thread to expose some of the myths about the "expensive AR" and get some facts out there that can be used by those of us out here on a budget. Appreciate you looking out for me. :D

JD


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