[Dillinger]

Originally Posted by BSNINJA

Thanks Dillinger. Naturally, I have a few more questions

Concerning shooting .223 out of 5.56 barrel:

What kind of accuracy loss do you think I would see? Negligible at 200 yards on a zombie sized target?

Well, that is why it's a personalized advice thread. You can ask all the questions you want, some of them I might just get right... LOL

It's not really the barrel/rifling so much as the chamber. Granted, I think the .223 is like .001" in diameter smaller than the 5.56mm - but it's not enough to really worry about.

The chamber isn't cut for the .223 size case, if you get the 5.56mm chamber.

So, what does that really translate to?

The brass is going to fire form to the chamber it is in when you fire the round. In a .223 chamber, the shoulder specs are smaller/tighter and I am pretty sure there is less throat.

I am attaching a chamber picture to help you understand the dimensions we are talking about.

So, how does that translate. As the bullet ( .223 Civilian ) won't be seated correctly ( 5.56mm chamber ) it won't get the most pressure to land and groove transfer. The speeds will be down ( a little bit ) the spinning of the projectile won't be as tight to the true center ( a little bit ) and the round won't have the same zip that the 5.56 will have.

On a man/zombie sized target at 200 yards? This is probably not going to be a problem unless you are aiming small with the intent to miss small. If you aim at the body, you are probably going to hit the body.

At 400 yards, or greater, I would imagine you are going to see a difference because the round is going to be more affected by adverse conditions like weather. It's not going to be traveling as fast, or spinning as tight, because it didn't get 100% of it's pressure and seat right at ignition.

Is this a problem for the average shooter? No, I don't think so. But you should definitely be an informed consumer of knowing what to expect.

Originally Posted by BSNINJA

Bull Barrels:

Would the installation of one differ much from a normal barrel?

And, also, I see alot of bull barrel setups and none have flash hiders. Is this (a) an impossibility, (b) not used because of its usual less-than-tactical applications, or (c) just not needed due to something Im not seeing?

Installation is about the same, but the gas block is significantly difference because of the barrel diameter ( obviously ). Both thin and thick barrels have a shoulder that inserts into the upper and rest there.

As far as flash hiders go - If you want one, and want to spend the money, it can be done. Just time and money.

I would imagine that the reason you don't see it alot on the heavy varmint rigs is that they are built for accuracy, not containing a flash on a short barreled rifle that might set of a meth lab.

I've seen a ton of different variations. It's like an old Ford or Chevy engine, you can do just about anything to the platform if you want to spend the money.

Originally Posted by BSNINJA

Operating-Rod/Piston:

You seem to be quite against it, and rightly so given your explanation of its cons. I can get behind that. But do you know of any pros to this setup? I'm not seriously considering it, but just want to know my options.

I am not against it, I think it has it's place. I am against the belief by "everyone on the Interwebz" that says "if you don't have a $1500 upper with a self contained gas piston, your gun is going to let you down and leave you dead in a ditch with a methhead doing naughty things to your corpse".




Benefits:

• The weapon will run in water
• The weapon will run in sand
• The weapon will run muddy
• The weapon won't stop running because you were too lazy to clean the gas tube
• The weapon is "more" maintanence free because the Interwebz believe that the AR platform is maintanence heavy and everyone wants AK reliability, but want a black rifle's accuracy.
• You can be cool at the range.

If you have read any of my threads on AR's, one thing that I have tried to impart is that this weapon system is NOT complicated. You don't need an engineering degree to take care of one. A little TLC, and some basic understanding of how they go together, and you can make one almost as reliable as your buddy who spends another $800 to get the gas piston and knows nothing about his weapon.

It's not hard to build an AR that will run in bad environments, but you need to realize that it will need some maintanence after the exposure. You can't just throw it in the safe and leave it for 6 months, pull it out when the air raid siren goes off and expect it to perform.

If that is your plan for care and maintanence, get the gas system... LOL

[BSNINJA]

I would imagine that the reason you don't see it alot on the heavy varmint rigs is that they are built for accuracy, not containing a flash on a short barreled rifle that might set of a meth lab.

My meth lab is very airborne-contaminant-safe. wait... standby for edit.

Haha, thanks again Dillinger. My shopping will be mostly of the window variety for now, but when I get home... It's on! In keeping with Junho's documentation of his build, I will try to make a thread concerning mine. I found his to be quite informative, and maybe another wouldn't hurt.

Oh, wait, here's a question for you. Do you have a link to a site containing maybe a map of FFL dealers? I would like to become acquainted with a few in my area back home.

[russ]

Originally Posted by BSNINJA

My meth lab is very airborne-contaminant-safe. wait... standby for edit.

Haha, thanks again Dillinger. My shopping will be mostly of the window variety for now, but when I get home... It's on! In keeping with Junho's documentation of his build, I will try to make a thread concerning mine. I found his to be quite informative, and maybe another wouldn't hurt.

Oh, wait, here's a question for you. Do you have a link to a site containing maybe a map of FFL dealers? I would like to become acquainted with a few in my area back home.

If you go to GunBroker.com they have a listing of dealers that will accept transfers. It probably isn't really complete, but it might be a good place to start.
linky: GunBroker.com - FFL Holder Network

[BSNINJA]

Awesome. Thanks nonetheless, russ.

[pagj17]

So... I'm looking at building a second upper and I'm looking for advice... I'm doing an a1 upper and either a medium contour 1-9 twist 16" chrome lined 5.56mm or a 1-8 twist .300 fireball. I've already got a dpms 20" bull barrel upper(weighs quite a bit really)for punching small holes in paper(and squirrels anddd.....).
I'm only looking for 1.5 moa at 300 and in for a Fecal matter on the rotary impeller situations... With the 5.56 barrel i'd be shooting mainly .223, and with the 300 fireball, everything from 110RNs to 200 Spitzers.(problem being it would mean i'd HAVE to get reloading equipment...) Advice is much appreciated kind Sir

[Dillinger]

Originally Posted by pagj17

So... I'm looking at building a second upper and I'm looking for advice... I'm doing an a1 upper and either a medium contour 1-9 twist 16" chrome lined 5.56mm or a 1-8 twist .300 fireball. I've already got a dpms 20" bull barrel upper(weighs quite a bit really)for punching small holes in paper(and squirrels anddd.....).
I'm only looking for 1.5 moa at 300 and in for a Fecal matter on the rotary impeller situations... With the 5.56 barrel i'd be shooting mainly .223, and with the 300 fireball, everything from 110RNs to 200 Spitzers.(problem being it would mean i'd HAVE to get reloading equipment...) Advice is much appreciated kind Sir

I guess I am missing the question.

Are you asking if you should get the Fireball build and reload, or get the 5.56 build and shoot factory?

Getting 1.5MOA at 300 is possible with either one, but you are going to find it MUCH easier to achieve that accuracy with a purpose built chamber ( IE - the 300 fireball ).

Using a 5.56 chamber for civilian .223 is fine from a safety standpoint, but the accuracy will be slightly diminished because the chamber is not correctly cut for the round in question.

Will you be able to achieve the desired accuracy even though the chamber is very slightly off? Yes, but it will take fine tuning and it will take some better parts ( barrel length, free float foreend, better trigger ) than with a purpose built 300 fireball upper.

From the standpoint of shooting small targets at range, I love the fireball round. Really great varmint cartridge that can be tuned to a real tack driver.

If that doesn't help and you had a different question, please let me know.

JD

[Oohrah]

I have a simular build for the .223 in that it is a 16" Bull barrel,Pro Low Panther upper from Rguns. It is chrome moly not chrome plated. The bottom is from Spikes Tactical. Mounted is a 6 to 24 scope. The barrel has not been broken in yet and the maker claims an eight of an inch to an inch and a half at 100yds. A little on the heavy side, but much steadier holding than my stock Bushy. This stuff was on sale around the first of the year, and not counting the scope was under $700 complete. In fact nearer to $650. If not a MOA or better, I'll rebarrel with a PacNor barrel after perhaps free float forearm replacement. May do just fine as it is.
As for the 30 caliber, yes if I were to use it for a deer rifle, otherwise an expense ammo situation for punching paper. Not so sure I wouldn't just go out and get a different platform deer rifle. Remember most states have a limitation on the amount of rounds that can be carried at five for semi auto.
for game such as deer.

[pagj17]

Haha.. Yeah it was early so i'm not sure what my question totally was. more of would it be worthwhile to go with fireball.

[Oohrah]

Na, I wouldn't. If you mean 221 Fireball, I think you are making a mistake in this platform. Already cases are sky high in price and can be formed and trimmed from .223 Rem. No clue how they would feed, and are lighter bullets, so barrel twist of 1 in 12 or 14 is needed. It would not be the 300 yard round, you wish. I had one of the first of the Thompson/Contenders in that caliber. Accuracy was OK with factory ammo, but scarce, as was loading componets (mainly cases). I rechambered it to .223 Rem, and never looked back. Probably a good round in bolt run rifles, as there isn't much of any case body taper. Don't know if the AR gas system would be OK for feeding/extraction problems. Frankly I have not heard of anyone doing this caliber with an AR platform, so it would be a crap shoot. If it were me, I would stick with proven things with this, as there have been numerous modifications to get to this stage for reliability of functioning. Years ago, they used to rebarrel .30 Carbines with a 22 barrel. Used a necked down 30 Carbine case ( I think 22 Spitfire) Still not a 300 yd cartridge, but fun, and functioned pretty well with the Carbine's piston type platform and straight wall cartridge design.

[pagj17]

Nooo .300 fireball/whisper and most 300 fireball barrels will accept reformed and trimmed 223 cases. but uh... i'm looking into getting one of the two because my bull barrel is not... conducive to using in hallways and such... and with 110 gr bullets being spit out at 2200fps... 300 fireball has a bit mor knockdown power