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Old 07-07-2012, 03:51 PM   #11
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Just a fun/gun range. I have my grandpas remington 721 for long range. Always wanted a AR in 5.56. There's just so many companies and options out there!
Start a new thread in the AR section, plenty of folks here willing to help
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:20 PM   #12
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You're right it is and I don't disagree that their are other's out there now who are manufacturing better rifles than DPMS. But you have dug your heels in about the morals and business practices of DPMS as being unjust by manufacturing lower quality rifles. So what say you to the manufacturers who gouged gun owners back in 08'? I would call that immoral as well, especially when done to the very community that they are supported by ... gun owners. By your reasoning you wouldn't give time of day for DD, Noveske, LaRue, Armalite, Colt ... all overpriced Mil Spec rifles
The so called "top tier" manufacturers tried to gouge gun owner by selling $1k rifles for $2k and more. A lot of this "DPMS is crap" lore was started by folks who were suckered into paying $2k for their rifles and felt slighted that anyone would dare sell an AR for less than $1k. Read the build threads here Mike, look at the range reports, lot's of folks here who "built" their own, Spitty ACTUALLY built his own, and we didn't need the Chart or some top tier manufacturer to do it.

Just because GM sells a Camaro for $60k doesn't make it a Corvette ..... it's still a POS Camaro

as I said, I would love for FTF to have the clout with manufacturers to be able to conduct product reviews and head to head tests so we could put forth viable, accurate information and not just opinion or regurgitated internet lore. Look at all the sites listed in Q's post - is it any wonder why some manufacturers won't even think of submitting for testing ... they couldn't possibly get a fair shake.
And the fact the sell a low quality product for the same price that others sell quality. I have given examples. For every DPMS price point there is a higher quality alternative.

I posed the same challenge to the DPMS rep. I asked him to give me a model # for DPMS then an equal from another company. Then I gave him an example from BCM and asked him to give me an equivalent (price/spec) from the DPMS line. He did the used car sales man shuffle. What does that tell you?

I covered the price gouging thing in another thread. That's a different topic. Just because others have made immoral decisions doesn't make DPMS right. That sounds like a liberal defending the current pres.

When you purchase a Noveske or Colt you are getting what you pay for. Noveske is on the high end but the quality of craftsmanship and functionality is high as well. It's a good ratio, Cost:Value. Even more so w/ Colt.

Account after account is not lore. It's all over the place. Even here on this small forum.

I've looked at the range reports. You need to look at the types of shooters giving these range reports.

They could get a fair shake. BCM did it and so could they. I actually gave them the opportunity and so have others. They not only refused but in some instances refused to even respond. Is it elitism or are they dodging the truth?
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:50 PM   #13
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And the fact the sell a low quality product for the same price that others sell quality. I have given examples. For every DPMS price point there is a higher quality alternative.

I posed the same challenge to the DPMS rep. I asked him to give me a model # for DPMS then an equal from another company. Then I gave him an example from BCM and asked him to give me an equivalent (price/spec) from the DPMS line. He did the used car sales man shuffle. What does that tell you?

I covered the price gouging thing in another thread. That's a different topic. Just because others have made immoral decisions doesn't make DPMS right. That sounds like a liberal defending the current pres.

When you purchase a Noveske or Colt you are getting what you pay for. Noveske is on the high end but the quality of craftsmanship and functionality is high as well. It's a good ratio, Cost:Value. Even more so w/ Colt.

Account after account is not lore. It's all over the place. Even here on this small forum.

I've looked at the range reports. You need to look at the types of shooters giving these range reports.

They could get a fair shake. BCM did it and so could they. I actually gave them the opportunity and so have others. They not only refused but in some instances refused to even respond. Is it elitism or are they dodging the truth?
They're simply standing their ground.
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:50 PM   #14
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I'm sure if everyone was required to give a report on an AR purchase 3 months after purchase a very different story could be portrayed. Just think how many ARs DPMS has sold over the last 3 years an how many other companies have also. The only real reason to post stuff about these companies online is if you have problems. Truth is every company has problems and what is more important is the ratio of lemons to total units. If Daniel Defense made and sold as many ARs as DPMS you would see more reported problems with them as well. I personally think that all these manufacturers have a place in the market and that opinion is backed up by the fact that these companies are still in business. Someone that wants an AR to be a range gun and nothing more can buy a DPMS or BM or Olympic and be very satisfied.

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Old 07-07-2012, 05:10 PM   #15
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I'm sure if everyone was required to give a report on an AR purchase 3 months after purchase a very different story could be portrayed. Just think how many ARs DPMS has sold over the last 3 years an how many other companies have also. The only real reason to post stuff about these companies online is if you have problems. Truth is every company has problems and what is more important is the ratio of lemons to total units. If Daniel Defense made and sold as many ARs as DPMS you would see more reported problems with them as well. I personally think that all these manufacturers have a place in the market and that opinion is backed up by the fact that these companies are still in business. Someone that wants an AR to be a range gun and nothing more can buy a DPMS or BM or Olympic and be very satisfied.
You are correct all companies are bound to let a lemon through the door. Some way more than others. You're argument has been presented time and again. If DPMS can't keep up the quality and production numbers maybe they should slow down and shift their priorities.

When thinking about the amount of ARs DPMS has sold over the years it makes me wonder. I wonder why after all this time they still can't get it correct w/ any consistency. You also have to look at how the people that purchase from these different companies use their ARs.

Companies like DPMS are in business for a couple simple reasons. People blindly recommending them, they are on the shelf at the LGS, they are pushed by the LGS employee who can't even tell the difference b/w 193 and 855/109, and the fact most really don't shoot enough to see the difference.

Lets just say that DPMS produces an amount of rifles equal to what Daniel Defense and BCM produce combined. I imagine this isn't correct but lets assume for our purpose. Find all the issues you can w/ DD and BCM and post it up.

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Old 07-07-2012, 06:15 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by MikeJK

You are correct all companies are bound to let a lemon through the door. Some way more than others. You're argument has been presented time and again. If DPMS can't keep up the quality and production numbers maybe they should slow down and shift their priorities.

When thinking about the amount of ARs DPMS has sold over the years it makes me wonder. I wonder why after all this time they still can't get it correct w/ any consistency. You also have to look at how the people that purchase from these different companies use their ARs.

Companies like DPMS are in business for a couple simple reasons. People blindly recommending them, they are on the shelf at the LGS, they are pushed by the LGS employee who can't even tell the difference b/w 193 and 855/109, and the fact most really don't shoot enough to see the difference.

Lets just say that DPMS produces an amount of rifles equal to what Daniel Defense and BCM produce combined. I imagine this isn't correct but lets assume for our purpose. Find all the issues you can w/ DD and BCM and post it up.
My point was some people knowingly by lower quality ARs and are fine with it. Why, you may ask. Because sometimes you can find them on sale or lightly used below the price point of higher end stuff. These people don't care if the rifle has issues because they expect it. Do you really think people who want to buy a rifle for the first time really take the advice solely from one person. I don't think so especially in our world where information is at your fingertips.
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:32 PM   #17
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This thread is a good example while I encourage people NOT to take posts from other forums where people are not known and copying it as fact. Have any of you even clicked the links? Or did you look at the list and go 'that's impressive, obviously DPMS has issues'?

I just read all those threads. Here are MY findings based on WAY too much friggin' reading of stupid posts and responses. Poster screen name and date of the post for your convenience, then what I found in the thread.

dbailey '12 - For this being a new rifle, there is little information here. The OP believes the rifle is short stroking because the gas port needs to be drilled. There is no follow up and very few questions are answered. I'd say assumed true, this was a DPMS issue.

mdphotographer '09 - As far as I can tell he bought a new rifle and shot it, it worked fine but was off target. he took it to Camp Perry and they said the FSB was canted so they fixed it for him. After that he claims it was short stroking and found the gas block loose. Taken at value I am going to say this was a DPMS issue.

Williamwallace '09 - Short stroking on a new weapon. DPMS responded to his thread and gave him things to check. No follow up posts, so I'd say 50/50 on this one taken at value.

SWTXtitan had bought a DPMS upper on an assembled lower and apparently had the wrong buffer & spring - Not a DPMS issue.

Tug McGroin was shooting cheap ammo and didn't clean the chamber of either of his weapons after shooting it. Not a DPMS issue.

MoDerN_WarRioR 09 - His thread was so full of counter speak I don't think anyone was able to help him and there was no follow up as to the solution, so all we know for sure is he had a DPMS and it was either a problem with the rifle, the lack of cleaning, the mag or the ammo he was using. I can't honestly say it was, or was not, a DPMS issue.

M-4Gunny 09 - He admitted to having 600 rounds through the weapon without fail, then shot 50 rounds without a problem and THEN he had a short stroking issue. Cleaning/Lubrication issue and Not a DPMS issue.

COM '10 - He stated he had problems and the thread reads that his BCG was too tight and wasn't correctly lubed. He sent it back to DPMS and they gave him a new BCG and he stated their customer service was great. Unsure if the BCG was correctly lubed and broken in, so I am neutral on this report of it being DPMS' fault.

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Old 07-07-2012, 06:33 PM   #18
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Clownracer '06 - First the guys over at ZombieSquad have a pretty good sense of humor. This kid bought either a new DPMS or a parts gun at a gun show and had a couple of FTF with weak pressure PMC Bronze ammo. Then there may or may not have been problems with the gas key, but the kid writes like a tourrets patient, so it's hard to tell. I am going to stay neutral on this one too.

tiger222 '07 - The guy installed an aftermarket muzzle break on his .308 and was shooting surplus ammo when he had problems with it short stroking. Weapon went back to DPMS and they diagnosed that the muzzle break wasn't allowing enough gas pressure to cycle the weapon and the ammo choice was not "recommended". I will concede that if you are going to sell a .308 weapon it should shoot all .308 ammo within reason, but this doesn't appear to be a quality issue with DPMS the guy did it to himself. 50/50 on this one at worst.

wes556 '09 - His dad had a DPMS for years with tons of rounds through it, then it started to short stroke. He had a crack in the gas block though he claims that he wasn't seeing a problem with compressed gas. Consensus was his stock that "wiggled" was the cause. No follow up, but can you really say this is a DPMS issue? I think not.

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2169589 - This is just laughable. The guy asks about DPMS quality and there are about 10 pictures of guys shooting keyholes at various ranges with reports of excellent quality and reliability. I am going with the OP DID NOT read any of the threads.

Holecreek '09 - As far as I can tell he shot the rifle, shot it with lacquered and unlacguered Wolf ammo. Then the rifle sat for a year, his words, and he took it back out and ran into the problem. This was a machining forum, so these guys got all super technical and he ended up buying a 5.56mm reamer and "fixing" the chamber. I'd say this is probably not a DPMS issue, but I'll go 50/50 on this one worst case.

Dan46n2 '10 - Bought a LaRue OBR mount and it didn't fit the DPMS rail. After inspection the machining on the fore end was not square. This was an obvious DPMS issue.

slinky '09 - Bought a DPMS upper and ran into fitting problems to several lowers. Taking him at his word I think this is a DPMS issue.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-162535.html - This is a question on quality in general with 90% positive responses or responses from people who have never owned one and reported what they heard. One guy had a legitimate first hand experience that was documented. Hardly a convincing piece of work :roll eyes:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=450166 - Again, a question is asked and a bunch of people report owning them without issues. A couple of guys report "hearing" of problems with them, then someone refutes it with hands on experience. No pictures of faulty or broken parts. Hardly convincing.

1911-A1 '11 - Apparently his DPMS lower had pins loosen up on him and walking. after making it into an SBR. If so, I would think DPMS would say it was because of the use as an SBR, but I don't subscribe to that theory and think a lower should be able to handle both. So, assuming this is true and accurate, this was a DPMS issue.

http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=17379&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=f00d 9558dedfe3b3775b3d678ee623ac - This is just painful. Is it good? Have you consulted The Chart? Blah, blah, blah.

cgseanp1 '10 - This was a question about a DPMS lower parts kit. It had nothing to do with a DPMS rifle, a lower or anything else, he just wanted to know if he should get one from them or someone else. As usual reviews were mixed with one guy claiming he had a problem with a couple and one guy claiming as a gunsmith he has installed 20 in the last year without issue.

jdbell2004 '10 - The guy bought a .223 DPMS rifle and was surprised when he was firing 5.56mm ammo and was having issues with extraction and didn't understand the difference between the two rounds. C'mon! This is a DPMS issue??

3s1k '11 - He bought a .223 DPMS and had problems shooting TUL Ammo without lubing it in a brand new rifle. Cheap ammo is not a DPMS issue in my opinion.

projectruger '11 - The guy was shooting American .223 without issue from his .223 chambered upper. Then he switches over to 5.56 TUL Ammo and he runs into problems. This is not a DPMS issue.

The last two thread links are questions about quality and people claiming problems and other people claiming reliability.

I have to say that for a list of supposed "DPMS is the worst junk ever" threads, there were very few issues that I read that could be traced directly back to DPMS.

Given the fact that one thread had DPMS shipping 5,000 to 6,000 guns a week in 2010, the shear numbers manufactured would have to lead to a few issues here and there.

I remain unconvinced that the entire company is shi'ite based on this supposed "proof"

JD

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Old 07-07-2012, 06:45 PM   #19
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Have any of you even clicked the links? Or did you look at the list and go 'that's impressive, obviously DPMS has issues'?
I looked at the list and thought "that's impressive, obviously, DPMS has issues" I mean, who has time to read all that


a little OCD with the research?
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:53 PM   #20
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a little OCD with the research?
Well I got to thinking. We have had several members here who have owned them and posted range reports and groups and I can't remember an S/M having these level of problems, or any real problems to be honest. I mean we have been here awhile man, you would think that this many threads would have showed more of an influx of disaster if DPMS was really that bad. Right?

So I decided to give the benefit of the doubt and read the links. Once I got started it was thread after thread of guys buying a rifle they didn't really understand and doing things they might not have done, or posted about, had they built one or had a better understanding.

The more I read, the more I was like "Here is a laundry list of supposed threads stating they are crap and over half of the threads don't say anything of the type". So here we are, a gun forum, and we are allowing bad information to be spewed as fact when the evidence is right there and we look like bigots against a company like DPMS.

Not good and definitely not where we used to talk about this forum heading as it grew.

JD
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