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Old 01-10-2012, 04:11 PM   #81
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It bothers me to no end when people start preaching that "just as good" garbage for one reason only, new guys (everyone else knows better). This is an open forum not just a conversation b/w guys at the range. What we say will be here in print for all to read. When some guy is sitting in front of his pc doing research on which AR to purchase he has no idea what's true and what's not. He doesn't know who's posting credible info or the posters level of experience. It's a crap shoot for him. I feel it's irresponsible to post b/s info for this very reason.

Quality is not an opinion, it just is. Some don't have it, some are hit and miss, then there are those that get it right.

I don't feel you're being attacked or that your opinion doesn't matter it's just that you're a little misguided on this topic. It's nothing personal.

Contradiction?: A lot of times when a guy comes on this site looking for confirmation instead of advise some of us go ahead and give the pat on the back the OP is looking for because it is to late. Why tell the guy the AR he just purchased and is so proud of is from one of those hit and miss companies?

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Old 01-15-2012, 05:52 PM   #82
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Sublime, no one is attacking your AR choice, if it works for you why should you care what anyone else thinks. A catastrophic failure in any firearm is rare and I'm not saying a DPMS or Del-Ton is likely to blow up. But if you want a defensive rifle that works almost 100% of the time in the grungiest environment with the crappiest ammo you can scrounge at the time, well you want something that has higher grade components.



ETA:
Same reasoning goes for your defensive handgun that absolutely has to work, do you buy a Taurus or kick in a little more for a Glock (or fill in the blank).
well if you want a defensive rifle that works almost 100 percent o the time in the grungiest environment with the crappiest ammo you can scrounge the AR platform is not it I dont care what quality of AR you buy. The M16 was not designed to work flawlessly in these type of conditions. I had to keep my M16 a2 very clean all the time in the army for it to work relaibly and even then it had its hiccups.
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Old 01-15-2012, 07:24 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quentin
Sublime, no one is attacking your AR choice, if it works for you why should you care what anyone else thinks. A catastrophic failure in any firearm is rare and I'm not saying a DPMS or Del-Ton is likely to blow up. But if you want a defensive rifle that works almost 100% of the time in the grungiest environment with the crappiest ammo you can scrounge at the time, well you want something that has higher grade components.



ETA:
Same reasoning goes for your defensive handgun that absolutely has to work, do you buy a Taurus or kick in a little more for a Glock (or fill in the blank).

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well if you want a defensive rifle that works almost 100 percent o the time in the grungiest environment with the crappiest ammo you can scrounge the AR platform is not it I dont care what quality of AR you buy. The M16 was not designed to work flawlessly in these type of conditions. I had to keep my M16 a2 very clean all the time in the army for it to work relaibly and even then it had its hiccups.
You were brainwashed just like I was brainwashed when in the service. There's a difference in prepared for inspection and prepared for combat. And between clean and lubed. You should google Filthy 14 if you're still caught up in that white glove mentality. The AR platform isn't nearly as finicky as many say.
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Old 01-15-2012, 07:30 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quentin

You were brainwashed just like I was brainwashed when in the service. There's a difference in prepared for inspection and prepared for combat. And between clean and lubed. You should google Filthy 14 if you're still caught up in that white glove mentality. The AR platform isn't nearly as finicky as many say.
It isn't anymore, but there have been some changes made to it since the 60's.

I've seen the BCG get slathered with vaseline and work flawlessly in the middle of a sandstorm.

It will work while filthy nowadays, just as you say. I'd trust my life to it.
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:17 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by tiberius10721 View Post
well if you want a defensive rifle that works almost 100 percent o the time in the grungiest environment with the crappiest ammo you can scrounge the AR platform is not it I dont care what quality of AR you buy. The M16 was not designed to work flawlessly in these type of conditions. I had to keep my M16 a2 very clean all the time in the army for it to work relaibly and even then it had its hiccups.
You mentioned A2 so I'm guessing it was quite a while ago. Like others have mentioned perception of what is required has changed. When I was enlisted the armorer did the white glove thing so I figured it was necessary. As a civilian I have found it is anything but a requirement. Sounds like your A2 had some problems your arms room should have addressed.
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:53 PM   #86
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I only had one fte with my A2.

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Old 01-26-2012, 02:30 AM   #87
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Default quality

We are still discussing which AR platform is better. Well, I made a few phone calls to customers of mine that manufacture AR platforms and asked about some specifics on the tolerance they used for there quality checks. What I found was that from one to another the difference in tightness of specification of the BCG and all vital parts was very slim. We were talking about microns and if you are unfirmiliar with micron, a micron is .001 of a milimeter. If you are looking for the equivelant in inches it would be roughly .000039 of an inch. To put it into terms everyone will be able to grasp it is 1/365th the diameter of a human hair. A tolerance that is invisible to the naked eye and just about the same tolerances used on the engine blocks of all your cars out there. So, hopefully to end this conversation, the tolerances used are in no means what makes any AR different from any other AR. There of course are slight differences in the metalurgic make up of the components and certain metals can handle a lot more stress than others, but from the information that I have been told the differences between vital components is so slight as to not be a factor in the actual quality of the rifle manufacturers that I spoke with. I can not, for confidentiality reasons, release any names, but they are a few of the top names and a few of the not so top names.

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Old 01-26-2012, 02:37 AM   #88
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I almost forgot to address something. The gentleman who spoke of keeping his rifle super clean, that is for the overall longevity of the rifles. The military doesn't want to replace rifles all the time cause they change hands every six months and nobody wants to clean them, hence the white glove inspection. Also when we were in the field, the only area of the AR that was vital for the proper function and was kept clean was the BCG, that is why they use a term called field stripping for cleaning the BCG in the field. The rifle will fire if you have sand in the trigger mechanism and even on the outside of the BCG during combat. I never had a ftf or fte when i was in iraq, at least not one that I recall off the top of my head.

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Old 01-26-2012, 07:30 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sublime42283 View Post
We are still discussing which AR platform is better. Well, I made a few phone calls to customers of mine that manufacture AR platforms and asked about some specifics on the tolerance they used for there quality checks. What I found was that from one to another the difference in tightness of specification of the BCG and all vital parts was very slim. We were talking about microns and if you are unfirmiliar with micron, a micron is .001 of a milimeter. If you are looking for the equivelant in inches it would be roughly .000039 of an inch. To put it into terms everyone will be able to grasp it is 1/365th the diameter of a human hair. A tolerance that is invisible to the naked eye and just about the same tolerances used on the engine blocks of all your cars out there. So, hopefully to end this conversation, the tolerances used are in no means what makes any AR different from any other AR. There of course are slight differences in the metalurgic make up of the components and certain metals can handle a lot more stress than others, but from the information that I have been told the differences between vital components is so slight as to not be a factor in the actual quality of the rifle manufacturers that I spoke with. I can not, for confidentiality reasons, release any names, but they are a few of the top names and a few of the not so top names.
So your unnamed sources are saying a cheap AR is built to the same exacting standards as a high quality AR? And that no corners are cut? I'd look for better unnamed sources, these guys are telling us to throw out the TDP and equip the troops with Vulcan. You need to give brands and people's names or this is just hearsay.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:38 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by sublime42283 View Post
I almost forgot to address something. The gentleman who spoke of keeping his rifle super clean, that is for the overall longevity of the rifles. The military doesn't want to replace rifles all the time cause they change hands every six months and nobody wants to clean them, hence the white glove inspection. Also when we were in the field, the only area of the AR that was vital for the proper function and was kept clean was the BCG, that is why they use a term called field stripping for cleaning the BCG in the field. The rifle will fire if you have sand in the trigger mechanism and even on the outside of the BCG during combat. I never had a ftf or fte when i was in iraq, at least not one that I recall off the top of my head.
Are you talking about detail stripping the bolt? We were told not to do that in Vietnam, only field strip. But then we were told not to do lots of things. I did what I wanted to do including detail stripping and cleaning in gasoline. You did what you had to do. And I never had a white glove inspection until I got to Okinawa.
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