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Old 08-07-2011, 12:44 AM   #41
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ARs are definitely not created equal and there is a definite line in quality between some ARs. It seems like there is 2 distinct levels of ARs in todays market. The lowest bidder stuff is BS. We're not talking about extra "crap".

We are talking about things like materials used and inspections performed. Those two can make all the difference in the world. Also QC at the manufacturers level makes a huge difference as well. How many times have you heard of a DD or BCM suffer from an out of spec chamber or horribly lazy staking job? I have never heard of such a thing. Can't say as much for some of the other guys however.

And your Ford vs. Lincoln comparison is not correct. There is a difference in quality of manufacturing and parts. Take a look at the leather used in the seats. The Lincoln will have better quality leather and more attention to detail is taken when stitching said leather.

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Old 08-07-2011, 02:41 AM   #42
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ARs are definitely not created equal and there is a definite line in quality between some ARs. It seems like there is 2 distinct levels of ARs in todays market. The lowest bidder stuff is BS. We're not talking about extra "crap".

We are talking about things like materials used and inspections performed. Those two can make all the difference in the world. Also QC at the manufacturers level makes a huge difference as well. How many times have you heard of a DD or BCM suffer from an out of spec chamber or horribly lazy staking job? I have never heard of such a thing. Can't say as much for some of the other guys however.

And your Ford vs. Lincoln comparison is not correct. There is a difference in quality of manufacturing and parts. Take a look at the leather used in the seats. The Lincoln will have better quality leather and more attention to detail is taken when stitching said leather.
So we are going to call a whole manufacturer below par because of human error. How many rifles have you seen have a catostrophic failure that was caused by just an inferior manufacturing of the rifle and processes. I am sure they happen, but toilets overflow sometimes too, are we going to blame the toilet manufacturer cause someone put half a roll of tiolet paper down it. I was looking around the internet and almost all catastrophic failure that I found was due to either ammunition or human error, even a malfuction with the magazine. I would like to see a company that has a track record of AR failure that can actually be attributed to the processes.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:00 AM   #43
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I was actually just looking something up. The only manufacturer that is listed as a gun smith and not just a dealer that is accredited by the BBB is Rock River. I also found out something interesting Remington Arms is the parent company to both Bushmaster and DPMS. Not saying anything just throwing some info out there.

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Old 08-07-2011, 01:44 PM   #44
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An out of spec chamber or poor staking job is a manufacture error. How can it be anything but?

From your example I'm getting the feeling you're not quite tracking. Comparing a consumer putting toilet paper down a toilet to a manufacturer not assembling an AR properly...

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Old 08-07-2011, 05:37 PM   #45
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Sublime, no one is attacking your AR choice, if it works for you why should you care what anyone else thinks. A catastrophic failure in any firearm is rare and I'm not saying a DPMS or Del-Ton is likely to blow up. But if you want a defensive rifle that works almost 100% of the time in the grungiest environment with the crappiest ammo you can scrounge at the time, well you want something that has higher grade components.



ETA:
Same reasoning goes for your defensive handgun that absolutely has to work, do you buy a Taurus or kick in a little more for a Glock (or fill in the blank).

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Old 08-07-2011, 05:49 PM   #46
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I was actually just looking something up. The only manufacturer that is listed as a gun smith and not just a dealer that is accredited by the BBB is Rock River. I also found out something interesting Remington Arms is the parent company to both Bushmaster and DPMS. Not saying anything just throwing some info out there.
Not sure what you mean that RRA is the only "gunsmith" manufacturer. Please explain how BCM, Colt, Daniel Defense and others are not. Heck I can call myself a gunsmith if I want or a PC manufacturer. What does the term really mean?

And it's Cerberus Capital Management that has gobbled up Remington, Bushamster, DPMS, Marlin and other firearms manufacturers. They're a huge conglomerate that buys up distressed or low prices companies. Most fans of the mentioned companies are not thrilled with the new ownership.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:43 AM   #47
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What I meant was that if you go to the BBB website the only Gunsmith that is BBB credited is RRA all other are not. Del-ton is BB credited, but they are not listed as a Gunsmith just a Gun Dealer, so after seeing this the other day I think that Del-ton is one of those that buys others components and stamps there name on them. I don't know how many others do that, but I am suspecting that Del-ton might. Also, the only reason I said anything about remington was that most of the companies that they own are listed twice on the BBB website with the second containing remington as the parent company, I didn't see anything about Cerberus Capital Management on there.

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Old 08-09-2011, 02:38 AM   #48
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Honestly being listed w/ the BBB doesn't mean much to mean when dealing w/ ARs. When a company sends me an excerpt from a magazine showing a discustingly filthy AR that has over 30k rounds (in less than a year) through it in harsh carbine class settings and is still ticking like an expensive watch w/o any sort of repairs or maintenance, I pay attention. When a guy putting 10k-20k rounds a year while running the snot out of his rifle says its GTG, I listen. Those are the rifles I want to spend my money on.

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Old 08-09-2011, 10:23 AM   #49
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What I meant was that if you go to the BBB website the only Gunsmith that is BBB credited is RRA all other are not. Del-ton is BB credited, but they are not listed as a Gunsmith just a Gun Dealer, so after seeing this the other day I think that Del-ton is one of those that buys others components and stamps there name on them. I don't know how many others do that, but I am suspecting that Del-ton might. Also, the only reason I said anything about remington was that most of the companies that they own are listed twice on the BBB website with the second containing remington as the parent company, I didn't see anything about Cerberus Capital Management on there.
They would only need to be listed as a gunsmith if they make lowers I believe.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:03 PM   #50
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I don't see anything to worry about as far as the BBB and RRA. Also, I don't buy that RRA is the only AR manufacturer that's accredited by the BBB. Even if it is true there are many brands out there that equal or surpass RRA.

As far as this "gunsmith" I still don't get what you're trying to say (we haven't defined gunsmith) but can't see what the big deal is there. And in the end what's the difference between a company like Daniel Defense or Colt that makes a high percentage of the parts that go in their ARs, including barrels, BCGs, rails, sights, etc. - and BCM that often gets their barrels and other main components from a high quality supplier. Either way, Colt, DD and BCM are highly regarded.

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