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Old 02-03-2012, 08:44 PM   #121
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223 with eotech



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Old 02-03-2012, 09:25 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by chewchew View Post
223 with eotech
5.56 with EoTech


If you remove the carry handle you'll be able to get a proper cheek weld and thus be able to use your firearm properly.

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They funny thing is in most cases we are talking about an amount as small as $200. $200 is the difference b/w a commercial quality play toy and a professional grade tool. I don't see where the disconnect comes from. If you can't save a couple hundred dollars in a months time +/- you don't have the money to be spending on an AR in the first place.

I also am starting to see where a lot of the differing opinions come from by looking at some of the different ways people have their ARs set up. Most people that shoot a lot tend to have similarly equipped ARs and the ones who don't...
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"The biggest issue with assembling an AR isn't so much getting the parts together right - it's getting the right parts together."
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:45 PM   #123
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Mebee he has a very big head......or just a long face......

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Old 02-03-2012, 10:06 PM   #124
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Maybe he has a very big head......or just a long face......
Fat cheeks or large cheek bones?
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"The biggest issue with assembling an AR isn't so much getting the parts together right - it's getting the right parts together."
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:41 PM   #125
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My, what big eyes you have......

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Old 02-04-2012, 08:27 AM   #126
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As Chandler pointed out a Glock compared to a 1911 is like apples to oranges. Why waste our time comparing them or Sigmas or shotguns, they're not the same design so hard to compare. Handguns to handguns or rifles to rifles is a wide open field - AR-15s to AR-15s is enough here.

I compared a cheap mountain bike to a quality one because they are the same basic design but way different in quality. Sure you can save money but you may get hurt if you ever need the extra quality. Kinda like DPMS vs. BCM.

Buy what you want but don't say DPMS is as good as BCM. (And I'm only talking about their AR-15s; their .308s sell for much more money and it seems they're of higher quality and strength as you would expect.)

And if you want to save money on Visio, that's your call. It's not exactly of the same importance as having a firearm to bet your life on.

So now what your saying is DPMS makes a "good .308, " but their .556 is crap? Last I checked, everyones 308 sells for more money! so I guess now they outsource their product to someone else to make it for them, so their is a better quality? Their 308 is very highly regarded, yet you tend to think that bc there is a .556 caliber rifle made by them, in the same factory, it is of lesser quality?

I find it amusing that even when a company post all the specs about every part of their products, that you still seem to think that they are crap. hell, del-ton is one of the very few that actually tell you every spec of every part of everything that you get, unlike your BCM that you keep referring to! and by the way, if you will humor me, how about do a spec comparison on the bcg of each, or barrel,receiver, ect... they are identical according to each of their sites! but why argue anymore...

And the analogy to glock versus 1911 was the fact that they are both, .45acp, yet neither is better than the other, less a preformed opinion. I have both and can honestly say that neither is any better than the other from a mechanical standpoint, and I would take the glock over any 1911 any day for mechanics, reliability, ect...by the way, I hate a damn glock... mountain bike to mountain bike is no different than 45-45, and yes, I also have experience in that field as well...had the unfortunate benefit of being assigned to a bike patrol for 2 years... but unlike a ar, a 125 bike versus my 2500 bike was vast, and completely different design! Like comparing a .556 to 50 cal... design is no where near the same!
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:37 AM   #127
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Just to add, as others have suggested, I do not own either a del-ton or dpms, But i have used both, along with the ones i do own. I am not getting my feelings hurt by any means. Would I buy one, yeah i wouldnt shy away from it. someone mentioned that the m&p sport versus... well the m&p sport sprots the same specs as the higher models up to a point... less , as stated earlier, forward assist and dust cover... But that is a "ok" rifle? Everyone always says quality, blah blah blah... I had more problems from a colt than i have any other rifle, AND i fell for the buy a colt bc it's a "COLT"... A very good friend has his DD on the way back to them for being broke, 100% DD rifle... but... Good rifle ??? And to add to the vizio...Last the stock market and consumer reports showed, they sell and are recommended by far more than any other brand... since someone wanted to comment on that and the "quality of parts"...

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Old 02-04-2012, 02:26 PM   #128
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thatguy216, you are wrong. I have as I am sure Quentin has actually done a side by side. Obviously you have not as they are not comparable. They are not, "identical according to each of their sites!".

The only thing different is the absence of a dust cover and FA? Wrong again.

What does making parts in house have to do w/ shipping a quality product? Nothing, just look at places like BCM. They put out a firearm that is very well respected by most professionals and are the chosen rifle of one of the most respected instructors in the world.

Comparing a Glock and 1911 is apples to oranges. Polymer VS. Steel one is always going to cost more to build regardless of performance or quality.

What is wrong w/ your friends DD?

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Old 02-04-2012, 03:16 PM   #129
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Ok, thatguy216.....

Let me interject into the conversation a little something that I know about. And that little thing is manufacturing.

You keep going back to the "specs" and how they compare favorably between the lower cost and higher cost brands. And to a point, you are correct. Specs are specs...they either compare or they don't.

Problem is, for your argument anyway, is that you seem to think that a published spec is indicative of the product a company puts out. Well I'm here to tell you, that's not the case. It comes down to quality control, and a company's willingness to ensure it. QC is THE DIFFERENCE between low end and high end. QC COSTS MONEY. And QC is what these guys are talking about. Not specs. Poor QC is how you get 3 out of 5 claiming that they've never had an issue, but yet 20% of what comes off that same production line is pure s..t.

If a company can't control variation in their processes, then QC problems are often overlooked. Especially in less reputable companies. Mainly because if something is found to be out of spec, with rare exception it is after it has been made. That means scrap, and scrap costs $$$. If it is moderately functional, they ship it anyway because odds are, it'll go to a guy who shoots 200 rounds a year. By the time something breaks, it's likely out of warranty anyway.

There is a reason that lower priced brands publish their specs....to allow them to be compared to better products. And people who don't know better will likely assume the finished product to be favorably comparable. But all the specs really show is what a particular company is TRYING to achieve. Not what they ultimately in fact do. It's easy marketing, really. They are counting on people's ignorance.

Like I told one of the younger guys at work, just because your ford focus "SVT" (with a 4 cyl.) has a speedo that goes to 165mph, that doesn't mean it'll get ANYWHERE close to that. Sorry.

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Old 02-04-2012, 04:18 PM   #130
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So now what your saying is DPMS makes a "good .308, " but their .556 is crap? Last I checked, everyones 308 sells for more money! so I guess now they outsource their product to someone else to make it for them, so their is a better quality? Their 308 is very highly regarded, yet you tend to think that bc there is a .556 caliber rifle made by them, in the same factory, it is of lesser quality?

I find it amusing that even when a company post all the specs about every part of their products, that you still seem to think that they are crap. hell, del-ton is one of the very few that actually tell you every spec of every part of everything that you get, unlike your BCM that you keep referring to! and by the way, if you will humor me, how about do a spec comparison on the bcg of each, or barrel,receiver, ect... they are identical according to each of their sites! but why argue anymore...

And the analogy to glock versus 1911 was the fact that they are both, .45acp, yet neither is better than the other, less a preformed opinion. I have both and can honestly say that neither is any better than the other from a mechanical standpoint, and I would take the glock over any 1911 any day for mechanics, reliability, ect...by the way, I hate a damn glock... mountain bike to mountain bike is no different than 45-45, and yes, I also have experience in that field as well...had the unfortunate benefit of being assigned to a bike patrol for 2 years... but unlike a ar, a 125 bike versus my 2500 bike was vast, and completely different design! Like comparing a .556 to 50 cal... design is no where near the same!
No, that's not what I'm saying and I don't have the time to sort out what you're saying though it sure looks like "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS." Staying on point would help.

And you say BCM doesn't give specs? How about these for a start? How about giving us Del-Ton's "every spec of every part of everything that you get"?
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Mid-16LW-Light-weight-AR15-Bravo-Company-s/148.htm

BCM MID-16LW Mod 0 BCM MID-16LW Mod 2
BCM® Mid-16LW Carbines will feature:

•BCMGUNFIGHTER™ Mod 4 Charging Handle
•Mid Length Gas System
•M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension
•M4 Feed Ramp Flat Top Receiver
•T-Marked Upper Receivers
•USGI 5.56mm NATO Chambers
•Independently Certified Mil-Spec 11595E Barrel Steel
•Chrome Lined Bore and Chamber
•Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish on entire barrel
•Mil-Spec F-Marked Forged Front Sights (.625")
•Taper Pinned Front Sight Base
•USGI Light Weight Government Profile Barrels
•HPT (High Pressure Test, per Milspec) Barrels
•MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected, per Milspec) Barrels
•Bolt machined from Mil-Spec Carpenter No. 158® steel
•HPT Bolt (High Pressure Tested/ Proof)
•MPI Bolt (Magnetic Particle Inspected)
•Shot Peened Bolt
•Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO)
•Chrome Lined Gas Key
•Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications
•Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners Key
•Staked Per Mil-Spec
•Tool Steel Extractor
•BCM® Extractor Spring
•Black Extractor Insert
•Receivers Machined from Aluminum Forgings 7075-T6
•Receivers Hardcoat Anodize per MIL-A-8625F, Type III, Class 2
•BCM® Milspec 7075-T6 Receiver Extension
•USGI Mold M4 Stock Staked M4 Lock Nut
•USGI H Buffer (1 USGI Tungsten, 2 Steel)
•Magpul MOE Enhanced Trigger Guard
•Low Shelf for RDIAS installation
•Low Shelf for Accuwedge use
•Un-notched Hammer compatible with 9mm use
•Fire Controls marked SAFE and SEMI
Complete BCM® Rifles and Carbines include: Rifle, 1 Magazine (where allowed), Cable Lock, USGI Manual, and F.E.T.
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