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Old 02-02-2012, 08:14 PM   #111
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You're not quite comparing apples to apples. Comparing Glock or M&P to a 1911 is like comparing a Toyota camry to a '69 Camaro resto-mod. Same goes for comparing a high-bred autoloading shotgun to a rack grade pump 870 or mossy 500.

The metaphor that Q is trying to get you to arrive at, in the Del-ton vs....... argument would be the same as if S&W charged the same price for a Sigma, that Glock does for the same TYPE of gun. I don't think anybody would argue that the Sigma should be cheaper than the Glock.

It's the same thing for AR's, man. That's what he's saying.

As far as Guns and Ammo reviews...please.
Chandler, thanks! I couldn't say it any better myself!
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:16 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Quentin

Chandler, thanks! I couldn't say it any better myself!
I've watched you and keat long enough now to know and understand what you're driving at
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:22 PM   #113
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The way I look at it is comparing a 1911 to a glock is like comparing a mountain bike to a tricycle.

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Old 02-02-2012, 08:29 PM   #114
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Comparing apples to apples... It is the same as how he regarded the walmart mountain bike. Still a mountain bike, same as a glock or m&p are still 45acp. The reference was just to show that just because something cost more, or is "considered" better doesnt necessarily make it so. I hate a glock, but own 1. Does it work, every single time. Now my 1911 on the other hand can be a little finicky. It is "better built" and tighter fit than either of the other 2 mentioned. Is it more accurate, not really. The sigma, everyone learned from experience. It came from Smith, very well regarded company, but look what it was. It was their first attempt to step into a market that they had no experience with, a polymer handgun. They tried and learned. The M&P received the same criticism when it came on the market as being another sigma...Now look at where the m&p stands in the minds of people. Same with ar's. Just because there are or have been some that were lemons, doesnt mean that every company that comes along offering one that is "cheaper" price wise means that it is of a lesser quality. Colt has had issues, as has many other well regarded companies.

As for the shotgun analogy, that again was to show the difference. Does my "lite 12" shoot any better than my 870, or my 1100 for that matter. It shoots "softer" and that is about it. My 1100 shoots just as good, as the browning. Beyond that, it is cosmetic differences. You can take a 870 and make it better, like Wilson Combat does. Take a 870 base model and "upgrade" certain parts, cost more than it is worth, but in reality, does it function any better than a stock version?

The argument at hand was weather someone should get a del-ton or a dpms and everyone jumped and said, "no spend more money and get this", and then each gave their own opinion as to why. Well, what about the smith and wesson sport m&p15. A budget oriented ar rifle, less dust cover and foward assist, and cost roughly 300 less, give or take, than the next model up. But, the internals are the same less chroming certain parts. It is cheaper than both the Del-ton or DPMS models. Is it a bad rifle? Not according to everyone who has shot one, owns one and reviewed it.

Odds are, that not one single person will ever use their ar for a shtf, or a combat situation, and since that is reality, why would one need to spend "extra" to have something that does what better?

Everyone is going to have an opinion... On every single forum, there are discussions of Colt,Noveske,Spikes,DD,BCM, LMT, ect all having some kind of failure, from barrels to cracked bolts, or what have you. Its ok when they fail, because they are "made better?" Yet they are still always the ones recommended...

A little side tracked but just another mention of quality... In the electronic world, when Vizio came out, they were regarded as the poor mans wide screen tv, or "cheap" because they cost less. Noone who could afford "better" wanted one, and everyone said "stay away"... Again, look how opinions have changed.

The whole argument is pointless, just like arguing over which 1911 is better, which polymer handgun, which bolt rifle... Which CAR! It is all a matter of opinion. If you want to believe that because someone said, or the manufacturer said, then great! If you sleep better at night "knowing" you own the "best", then great!
As Chandler pointed out a Glock compared to a 1911 is like apples to oranges. Why waste our time comparing them or Sigmas or shotguns, they're not the same design so hard to compare. Handguns to handguns or rifles to rifles is a wide open field - AR-15s to AR-15s is enough here.

I compared a cheap mountain bike to a quality one because they are the same basic design but way different in quality. Sure you can save money but you may get hurt if you ever need the extra quality. Kinda like DPMS vs. BCM.

Buy what you want but don't say DPMS is as good as BCM. (And I'm only talking about their AR-15s; their .308s sell for much more money and it seems they're of higher quality and strength as you would expect.)

And if you want to save money on Visio, that's your call. It's not exactly of the same importance as having a firearm to bet your life on.
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:58 PM   #115
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Hyunda and Vizio eventually got it right, when will DPMS? How long has DPMS been around? Long enough for us to draw the conclusion that they will more than likely never get it right.

I'm going out on a limb here (not really) when I say Noveske is probably the best .308 AR on the market.

I would recommend a $600 S&W Sport for a range AR but the build materials are different than those used in the assembly of rifles such as a BCM or DD and even a PSA. You can get into a PSA for damn near the same price as a S&W Sport.

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"The biggest issue with assembling an AR isn't so much getting the parts together right - it's getting the right parts together."

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Old 02-02-2012, 09:21 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Chandler51 View Post
I've watched you and keat long enough now to know and understand what you're driving at
True, true! And it's really a fairly simple message:

Know what your intended uses (applications) for an AR-15 are.
Learn as much as you can about the rifle, the various barrels, bolts, etc.
Give a lot of thought to the components that go into your AR.
Set a reasonable budget in line with your applications.
Buy a quality rifle and/or components, the best that you can afford.
Learn how to maintain and shoot it well.

And if you ignored everything above and lowballed it, don't say it's as good as a Colt, _______, ________ or ________ !!!

As MJ often has pointed out, we get a lot of new people asking what everyone thinks of their new ________ that they paid _____ for. If you give false praise, someone else may interpret that as a recommendation and buy the same thing. If you are honest, you hurt someone's feelings. No one wants to hurt feelings but you don't want someone else to make the same mistake, so it's best to be honest even if that's interpreted as being an AR snob.
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:42 AM   #117
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This has been one of the most comical, informative( in respect to knowledge for guns, bikes, cars, TVs ) and entertaining threads I have followed. First I would like to say that I am not endorsing the "as good as" campaign.

I believe that anyone who has any knowledge what so ever in machining, metallurgy, metal fatigue, and the American way of if we can skimp here and save a buck then why not, should have figured out what side they were on 3 pages ago.

I don't feel like looking back now but someone made the comment earlier in the thread about lower end companies using the same specs as higher end guys, but that the little guys might use a different grade of metal to machine their products. Doesn't sound like much, but to me I happen to be believe that higher grade materials can withstand more abuse. If a companies tolerances are within the microns someone was educating us on, but their materials are of lower quality, then repetitive use can cause a little thing called friction(no matter how much you clean/lube) and friction leads to erosions which causes fatigue. All of these things will do one thing... Take those really tight tolerances and slowly ware them to a point where they will fall out of spec and cause a failure. Not necessarily catastrophic, but failure none the less.

Not just guns but anything made of higher quality materials and standard specs will perform correctly for a longer period of time than than the corner cutters.

Now that I have said that I want to add that if having a dpms etc. makes you happy then that is all that matters but don't get offended when someone gives their opinion and it is not in favor of your rifle. Dpms is a good gun for sure but maybe not good enough for some people. That is not saying that you have a POS if you own one.

By the way I think I know Thatguy from an old forum and he likes to do this whether the argument is relevant or not. If the topic was "my favorite color" he would argue that you were wrong. For the record I'm not saying he does not have some good arguments. I'm saying that they are misguided and close minded.

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Old 02-03-2012, 10:13 AM   #118
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I have a DPMS 24 bull and been many rounds through it. Can't complain except for the high price. The Atlanta and ajouning cobb county swat teams just switched from DPMS to Rock River ar's for reasons unknown.. I've tied a colt ar and a dpms with the same scopes on the same lead sled with the same ammo just to see which was more accurate. They both shot the same pattern. Neither of them has ever malfuntioned.

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Old 02-03-2012, 12:09 PM   #119
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Since we are now into analogies... .
just as an FYI: ... I'm the one who started the analogies.... and I'm new to this forum, and new to this debate.

I'm not going to try the "Cant we all just get along? " thing, but I see very valid points on both sides.

In my case, I am just trying to learn. I came late to shooting, I was about 54. Now I have about as many guns as you mentioned, thatguy216. And Quentin mentioned Palmetto State Armory in reply to me. And their prices are very fair and inexpensive. So, the point seems more that you can spend less, but there might be better choices.

And another analogy... you mentioned Hyundai... I agree ... I remember back in the 60's when guys started driving Honda cars. I thought , "wtf?!", they got motorcycle engines????

Now Honda's are considered by many as well-built and well-engineered.

Porsche and Ferrari are great cars.... very expensive.... they are fast, and handle well... but i do NOT need one ... even if I was driving on the autobahn. THIS point being that some expensive things are bought my many/most to IMPRESS ...

So, I don't need a porsche if a Jeep or GMC will do!

Sorry, another analogy.

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Old 02-03-2012, 12:16 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Quentin View Post
True, true! And it's really a fairly simple message:

Know what your intended uses (applications) for an AR-15 are.
Learn as much as you can about the rifle, the various barrels, bolts, etc.
Give a lot of thought to the components that go into your AR.
Set a reasonable budget in line with your applications.
Buy a quality rifle and/or components, the best that you can afford.
Learn how to maintain and shoot it well.

.
Exactly! At this time... my intended use is having fun shooting my ar at targets. BUT, I know me... at one time I had 9 guitars or more. BECAUSE, each one had a specific use that it was better than the others.

I know that as I get into this more, my intended uses will expand. And I'm pretty sure that I haven't bought my last gun.
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