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Old 02-01-2012, 12:23 AM   #91
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Default so, I'm a dummy

I should sit back and just lurk for a while.

But this topic is one I'm really interested in.

I've got a number of firearms, and yes, I'm primarily a mere "range-rat" or whatever is the correct term. I've never been in combat, don't plan to be , don't plan on killing my neighbors if the poo strikes the fan.

I first bought a Ruger Mini-14 because it looked like fun. And I was right! It is.
Then I bought a Bushmaster C15 (a "cheap" gun, I guess). It's also really fun.

3 or 4 Years ago, I bought a Marlin 45-70 Lever Action. That was because I thought I was going to skip out on financial problems and move to Alaska, thinking that I would *NEED* that for grizzlies!

The only guns I have for real "work" are Remington 700 270 wins (I have 2) , and that is in the HOPE of hunting elk.

So... I'm not an expert, I did NOT slog through the mud in Vietnam, or Iraq; and I have immense respect and gratitude toward those who did. I'd volunteer, but being 60, I'm a little long in the tooth (and big around the waist).

So.. too late to make a long story short, but what I'm interested in, is shooting... period. If a DPMS or Del-Ton will do the job... I'm happy. If they truly are CRAP... I'd like to know.

In fact , I'd like to build one from parts sometime, maybe later this year.

I was thinking about starting with a S&W lower , and then adding a DPMS upper.

I love this stuff... and I didn't discover it until I was about 54!

So, thanks for MY rant, and I appreciate any advice ...

Pat...

ps... I just joined this forum... be gentle!

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Old 02-01-2012, 12:32 AM   #92
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... I'd like to build one from parts sometime, maybe later this year.

I was thinking about starting with a S&W lower , and then adding a DPMS upper.

I love this stuff... and I didn't discover it until I was about 54!

So, thanks for MY rant, and I appreciate any advice ...

Pat...

ps... I just joined this forum... be gentle!
Pat, I'm an older guy too. Building/assembling an AR is not hard, you'll love it!

My first AR started with a S&W stripped lower and I highly recommend that lower, top notch in every way. I would set my sights higher than DPMS or Del-Ton. Look at PSA, Palmetto State Armory, they have great quality and prices.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:21 AM   #93
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Thanks, Quentin!

I'll give that a look.

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Old 02-01-2012, 06:51 AM   #94
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Well, no one on here seems to like or value my opinion or the facts, but there is nothing wrong with a DPMS upper. There are only a few manufacturers that make the upper or lower receivers, that they then sell to the major brand manufacturers. If anyone disagrees, there is multiple discussions on "ar15 dot com" that will more than answer your question. Smith does not make their own parts as suggested , they are sub contracted out, same as many other makers. If you want a dpms upper, get it, mil spec is mil spec and people here , actually a few regulars, will argue that there is a difference in mil spec just because of a stamp on the side of the rifle. I personally own a lmt,stag, and smith. Is one better than the other, truth be told... nope! uppers and lowers are more or less universal. bcg, barrel, gas block, feed ramps, barrel, ect all vary from one to another. there are "experts" on here that will bash dpms or del-ton to no end because they are not colt, lmt,daniel defense, or whatever. The fact is , they are all mil spec, and del-ton on other sites, gets excellent reviews which i know chaps some on here's ass! ive fired about all of them, and if i were going to buy a stock gun complete, it would be a stag or sig for the money. If i were going cheap, I'd go del-ton, as they are now rated by actual EXPERTS who use them daily as a great and very reliable weapon. But, listen to the so called experts on here who seem to have a bias opinion. it has already been addressed of tolerences and variations in tolerences, yet they still seem to think "name brand" means better. There is nothing wrong with dpm, and they are very well regarded in the 308 upper field, with few above them. do your research before you take what some of these people say to heart. Ive used quite a few, they will all fail at some point, there is no perfect one, regardless of what your told. And for the ones who state "combat ready"... I never got to carry my personal weapon when i was enlisted, I was issued one. So unless you expect zombies to invade, anything will work once tuned!

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Old 02-01-2012, 02:05 PM   #95
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Well, no one on here seems to like or value my opinion or the facts, but there is nothing wrong with a DPMS upper. There are only a few manufacturers that make the upper or lower receivers, that they then sell to the major brand manufacturers. If anyone disagrees, there is multiple discussions on "ar15 dot com" that will more than answer your question. Smith does not make their own parts as suggested , they are sub contracted out, same as many other makers. If you want a dpms upper, get it, mil spec is mil spec and people here , actually a few regulars, will argue that there is a difference in mil spec just because of a stamp on the side of the rifle. I personally own a lmt,stag, and smith. Is one better than the other, truth be told... nope! uppers and lowers are more or less universal. bcg, barrel, gas block, feed ramps, barrel, ect all vary from one to another. there are "experts" on here that will bash dpms or del-ton to no end because they are not colt, lmt,daniel defense, or whatever. The fact is , they are all mil spec, and del-ton on other sites, gets excellent reviews which i know chaps some on here's ass! ive fired about all of them, and if i were going to buy a stock gun complete, it would be a stag or sig for the money. If i were going cheap, I'd go del-ton, as they are now rated by actual EXPERTS who use them daily as a great and very reliable weapon. But, listen to the so called experts on here who seem to have a bias opinion. it has already been addressed of tolerences and variations in tolerences, yet they still seem to think "name brand" means better. There is nothing wrong with dpm, and they are very well regarded in the 308 upper field, with few above them. do your research before you take what some of these people say to heart. Ive used quite a few, they will all fail at some point, there is no perfect one, regardless of what your told. And for the ones who state "combat ready"... I never got to carry my personal weapon when i was enlisted, I was issued one. So unless you expect zombies to invade, anything will work once tuned!
The problem is you have your facts wrong, thatguy. With ARs you can't say any old part is good enough. Same with trucks, tools and even computers, just because a part is machined to fit doesn't mean it's as good as an "equivalent" part. There are different grades of AR parts made of different materials and to different specifications, just like tools. So a cheap socket fits a bolt, but will it last like a quality socket? Maybe for a while but sooner or later you'll bust your knuckles.

You say milspec is milspec and all manufacturers build to the same level or get their components from the same source. Got any proof of that? Do you know what milspec is and do you think every manufacturer has access to the M4 TDP? Even if they all have a clue what the TDP is do they all use the components specified or do many cut corners assuming brand X is good enough?

Buy anything you like but don't say it's "as good as" without more evidence. Compare the published specs of a BCM vs. low end ARs. There is a difference, you get what you pay for.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:12 PM   #96
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Everyone take a deep breath.

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Old 02-01-2012, 02:37 PM   #97
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When you get up from your bench rest let us know.
I did laugh at this one.


After reading this thread I would say the disscussion is going well

Any firearm can have issues, QC is just usually better with the higher tier companies. Not all ARs are created equal. For most guys who just go to the range to blow through some rounds every month most any AR will work with some cleaning and lubing.

Now for those of you that are running your rifle hard or are buying/building one for a HD or SHTF scenario I would personally want the best I can afford. I built mine from parts and with the exceptition of an Olympic lower (needed pre-ban in CT for flash hider, collapseable stock, etc) my rifle consists of parts from top tier companies (BCM, DD, Troy, Magpul). I feel happy knowing I have quality parts and after testing I should be able to trust my rifle.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:56 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by thatguy216 View Post
Well, no one on here seems to like or value my opinion or the facts, but there is nothing wrong with a DPMS upper. There are only a few manufacturers that make the upper or lower receivers, that they then sell to the major brand manufacturers. If anyone disagrees, there is multiple discussions on "ar15 dot com" that will more than answer your question. Smith does not make their own parts as suggested , they are sub contracted out, same as many other makers. If you want a dpms upper, get it, mil spec is mil spec and people here , actually a few regulars, will argue that there is a difference in mil spec just because of a stamp on the side of the rifle. I personally own a lmt,stag, and smith. Is one better than the other, truth be told... nope! uppers and lowers are more or less universal. bcg, barrel, gas block, feed ramps, barrel, ect all vary from one to another. there are "experts" on here that will bash dpms or del-ton to no end because they are not colt, lmt,daniel defense, or whatever. The fact is , they are all mil spec, and del-ton on other sites, gets excellent reviews which i know chaps some on here's ass! ive fired about all of them, and if i were going to buy a stock gun complete, it would be a stag or sig for the money. If i were going cheap, I'd go del-ton, as they are now rated by actual EXPERTS who use them daily as a great and very reliable weapon. But, listen to the so called experts on here who seem to have a bias opinion. it has already been addressed of tolerences and variations in tolerences, yet they still seem to think "name brand" means better. There is nothing wrong with dpm, and they are very well regarded in the 308 upper field, with few above them. do your research before you take what some of these people say to heart. Ive used quite a few, they will all fail at some point, there is no perfect one, regardless of what your told. And for the ones who state "combat ready"... I never got to carry my personal weapon when i was enlisted, I was issued one. So unless you expect zombies to invade, anything will work once tuned!
"Facts"? The receivers have little to do w/ the quality of an AR. Considering you have all the facts you should know this.

Mil spec is mil spec? What is mil spec?

Name brand has nothing to do w/ it. It just so happens there are certain brands that get it right and those that don't. A name is nothing but an identifier that helps those who want value for their dollar.

I would stop slumming around ar15.com and try m4carbine.net or lightfighter for some hard info. They won't whore themselves out for a dollar disregarding fact or ban members for not candy coating things.

I'm so sick of this "just as good" ****. It's not true, it sets people up for failure and these corner cutting over charging manufacturers skate by.
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"The biggest issue with assembling an AR isn't so much getting the parts together right - it's getting the right parts together."
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:00 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Quentin

The problem is you have your facts wrong, thatguy. With ARs you can't say any old part is good enough. Same with trucks, tools and even computers, just because a part is machined to fit doesn't mean it's as good as an "equivalent" part. There are different grades of AR parts made of different materials and to different specifications, just like tools. So a cheap socket fits a bolt, but will it last like a quality socket? Maybe for a while but sooner or later you'll bust your knuckles.

You say milspec is milspec and all manufacturers build to the same level or get their components from the same source. Got any proof of that? Do you know what milspec is and do you think every manufacturer has access to the M4 TDP? Even if they all have a clue what the TDP is do they all use the components specified or do many cut corners assuming brand X is good enough?

Buy anything you like but don't say it's "as good as" without more evidence. Compare the published specs of a BCM vs. low end ARs. There is a difference, you get what you pay for.

I am so glad someone said something. I am so tired of hearing "mil spec is mil spec" and they all get the same parts. Its people like that that buy anything the lgs guy tells him is "as good as all the others" I have a del-ton upper and I will tell you its not as good as some of the others. It does work and I have never had a malfunction after 2000 rounds in the last two months. Bottom line is if you want the best quality for your money dpms, del-ton, and bushmaster are not the best. If you just want a cheap gun and don't care about quality the by all means buy one.
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:53 PM   #100
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I would like to add that Mil-spec is just a standardized indicator. It is stipulated by the military to suppliers as the minimum level of quality expected. It can be arbitrary. Please don't take this the wrong way but, Mil-spec doesn't even mean the best quality. It is an indicator of good quality, but it is by no means the best.

I AM NOT saying that ALL non mil-spec products are better that mil-spec.

There are products that are not mil-spec but are arguably better. For example: Noveske barrels. Young's BCGs, JP barrels, Geissele and AR gold triggers, Billet uppers and lowers etc etc etc.

I am saying that there are products that are better than mil spec.

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